So I'm watching the two towers and I cant help but try to understand why it was so important to win helms deep. Rohan was down to a few hundred men, they were hiding in a mountain.

It would have been wiser to send a few thousand orcs to sit outside Helms deep to barricade them in and siege them to side-line Rohan. And use the bulk of Isengaard's army to a coordinated attack with mordor's forces to gondor.

Or if not gondor, focus on the elves, who just lost a bunch of people to ferry across the sea.

Or if not the elves or gondor, continue to hatch orcs and arukia (whatever) until you can replace the numbers sieging helms deep.


There is very little tactical advantage to throwing "tens of thousands" at a stronghold to kill a few hundred fighting men. You have already taken their lands and cities. The kingdom had fallen.

bonfarr said:

---

If you could manufacture orcs and urukhai by the tens of thousands why would you bother with tactics? You just overwhelm them by sheer force of numbers.

---

Why even bother to put them in phalanx? Just have a horde. Yet they organized them, armored them, even marched in straight lines.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

---

They massively outnumbered them and Saruman's intent was to wipe Rohan out. And he would've succeeded too, he just didn't count on Gandalf rallying the Rohirrim.

Plus, it's fantasy. It's good vs evil. Don't overthink it.

---

again. 10,000 orcs to kill 300 men. He did wipe rohan out. Rohan wasnt going to be a power again for 6 maybe 5 generations into the future.

Arukia is delicious with lemon sauce.

Its the same question of renly having to defeat stannis in game of thrones. If you dont break helms deep and kill the king, it makes everyone think you are incapable. Going into elf country would have not been advisable, their magic could overwhelm most armies if needed.

The Debt said:

---

Brian Earl Spilner said:

---

They massively outnumbered them and Saruman's intent was to wipe Rohan out. And he would've succeeded too, he just didn't count on Gandalf rallying the Rohirrim.

Plus, it's fantasy. It's good vs evil. Don't overthink it.

---

again. 10,000 orcs to kill 300 men. He did wipe rohan out. Rohan wasnt going to be a power again for 6 maybe 5 generations into the future.

---

Except, you know, the king and his next of kin.

I highly doubt the Orcs understood siege tactics.

AustinAg2K said:

---

I highly doubt the Orcs understood siege tactics.

---

They had scorpions and ladders at helms deep.

In rotk they had catapults.



It's cute you think sauramon has to kill the king to prove he's powerful, yet the king of rohan sitting behind his walls for a prolonged siege while his lands are occupied has nothing to prove.

But one of you bring up a good point, should have hunted down the calvary. If you kill all the opposition not hiding and control movement you wont have calvary charges or elf bowmen to reinforce helms deep.

The Debt said:

---

So I'm watching the two towers and I cant help but try to understand why it was so important to win helms deep. Rohan was down to a few hundred men, they were hiding in a mountain.

It would have been wiser to send a few thousand orcs to sit outside Helms deep to barricade them in and siege them to side-line Rohan. And use the bulk of Isengaard's army to a coordinated attack with mordor's forces to gondor.

Or if not gondor, focus on the elves, who just lost a bunch of people to ferry across the sea.

Or if not the elves or gondor, continue to hatch orcs and arukia (whatever) until you can replace the numbers sieging helms deep.


There is very little tactical advantage to throwing "tens of thousands" at a stronghold to kill a few hundred fighting men. You have already taken their lands and cities. The kingdom had fallen.

---

The movies sort of altered much of the "how" and "why" of the battle for dramatic effect: Theoden retreats from the war leading a refugee to a refugee train that is closer to isengard to "wait out the war" or something. Saruman then decides to send his army to assault that fortress, when as you stated it would be far more effective to send the bulk of his army through Rohan only leaving a small force to contain them here.

Honestly in the movies it doesn't really make a lot of sense.

If you're interested, here is a link to a multi-part, ongoing series by a military historian breaking down the whole Helms Deep sequence, highlighting strategic blunders and battlefield tactics in the books and the films. A few months ago he did the same for the Battle of the Pelennor fields.

https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-i-bargaining-for-goods-at-helms-gate/

Tyvm

Sometimes people make strategic mistakes in war.

Calvary charge? Or Cavalry charge?

Wow, this thread is nerd bait for trolling, not sure if unintentional or intentional. Not touching this one.

Quote:

---

son of a bitc..................................................

---

Iirc, the san antonio mission was strategic because it sat on a supply line back to mexico.

Imagine if santa anna was marching through texas unopposed then for some reason decided to wipe out a stronghold in el paso because stephen f austin was there...

https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-i-bargaining-for-goods-at-helms-gate/

Done.

Edit: Just realized it was already linked. I scanned too quickly.

Urban Ag said:

---

son of a bitc..................................................

---

The Debt said:

---

Quote:

---

son of a bitc..................................................

---

Iirc, the san antonio mission was strategic because it sat on a supply line back to mexico.

Imagine if santa anna was marching through texas unopposed then for some reason decided to wipe out a stronghold in el paso because stephen f austin was there...

---

186 dudes trapped inside a crumbling Spanish mission held no strategic value. One of the biggest blunders in new world military history.