Also, based on a chapter from Winds of Winter, Stannis has Theon in custody, so if Ramsay had destroyed Stannis and his army, he would presumably have his Reek back.

She wouldn't be changing faces in front of anyone or like switching disguises in the courtyard where everyone could see. There are people bringing grain to the castle, bringing supplies to make weapons, doing all sorts of tasks that she could disguise herself as one of.

Literally the only way she could get caught by Littlefinger is doing exactly what she's doing now. That's why I think she's doing it on purpose. I don't think it's Arya that's gotten overconfident, I think it's Littlefinger.

Arya knows what he is capable of (sort of), he has no idea what she's capable of.

Wouldn't you say the Starks have a history of being overconfident?

Back to the WWs. Just throwing this out there. If all of them die, would all of the wights instantly die too?

Also, I have to wonder if the magic of the wall is lost in a similarly foolish way as what happened with Bran at the tree cave.

redline248 said:

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Wouldn't you say the Starks have a history of being overconfident?

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Sure, and I've thought for a while that Arya was going to do something rash that ended up getting her in trouble, like killing someone for one of her personal reasons that they could have used for something, but to let Littlefinger catch her following him would just be way too big of a leap for me. She has the power to absolutely make sure that doesn't happen, and she just willingly chooses not to use it?

I don't know. He may be familiar with "no one" and Arya could have given her skills away when she said no one taught her how to fight.

She has no reason to think he's vigilant enough to set a trap to catch her spying. Why use her face changing abilities when, in her mind, she doesn't have to?

redline248 said:

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Not sure anyone should take Ramsay f-cking Bolton's word on anything

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Mance Rayder's words

In regards to the wall, with whatever magic it might have carved into it, I feel like dragging a giant scythe across it during the wildling attack may have done something to weaken it. Jon keeps talking about how the wall has been undermanned and un maintained for centuries. I would also guess that some of those secrets are in the dragon glass cave inscriptions.

bangobango said:

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bobinator said:

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Yeah I don't know why people are getting upset over a (mostly) perfectly reasonable discussion.

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No idea either. I do not remember other season threads being as contentious as this one has been.

We can all have disagreements on the show and not call each other names over it.

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I also don't understand why comparisons to the book are somehow reason for anger on this thread. There is a Show Only thread that is heavily policed if you don't want to talk about the books or care about the books or want to hear anyone say anything to indicate the books are better. Part of what makes this thread interesting is it puts all the cards on the table outside of script spoilers.

As for me, I look at the Books and Show as different animals. Just because something happened in the books doesn't mean it matter in the show (though it may). The books are Martin. The show is many writers, many directors, actors interpretations, and D&D as well as possibly some others on high giving their input in a medium that has many restrictions and has to be told in a different way because of a different audience.

My real fantasy is that Martin has actually basically finished WoW and is working on DoS but now has decided he wants to wait until the show is over to release them so he can make changes and tell a different story with many comparable points. That would follow his style. That would also be really cool. Of course the reality is for Martin to do that would mean that he would need to go 8 books and live to be 107 with his full faculties because he is more interested in Wildcards and talking about his little theatre in Santa Fe or going to some Con. Can't completely blame him but it is sad at the same time if he doesn't finish what is the greatest fantasy epic since LoTR.

redline248 said:

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She has no reason to think he's vigilant enough to set a trap to catch her spying. Why use her face changing abilities when, in her mind, she doesn't have to?

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Because there's no downside to using them. There's only downside to not using them.

Everyone in Winterfell knows who she is, so why risk someone else randomly bumping into you while you're following Littlefinger around?

Anyway, I will say that there are some pretty good cases here that perhaps Arya is just vastly underestimating Littlefinger, but she was in the room with him and Tywin Lannister so she definitely knows he's a schemer though maybe not the full extent.

Just seems like a reach to me that she wouldn't disguise herself when that's her greatest skill.

I believe that is Alys Karstark
(Played by Megan Parkinson)

I thought that was an odd choice also, but Arya can't just go around killing innocent people to use their faces. Maybe she secretly is eating babies or something out back.

bobinator said:

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JaneDoe02 said:

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I believe that is Alys Karstark

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I'm almost certain that's not who that is.

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The girl with Littlefinger seems more attractive to me than Alys was. But I may be misremembering.

bobinator said:

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I thought that was an odd choice also, but Arya can't just go around killing innocent people to use their faces. Maybe she secretly is eating babies or something out back.

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Arya saw her talking to LF. Wouldn't be surprised if Arya justified grabbing her face on that alone.

Honestly, I'm not 100% sure if it's her or not.

But I think it probably is.

bobinator said:

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I thought that was an odd choice also, but Arya can't just go around killing innocent people to use their faces. Maybe she secretly is eating babies or something out back.

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Arya has gotten pretty dark. I could see her considering whomever that girl is to be a traitor or enemy since they are taking money from LF to give him info and thus she would have no guilt in killing them. Arya doesn't like to kill innocents but as soon as someone is a threat she won't hesitate.

In the end the real point is you can make a strong argument that LF is playing Arya or vice versa and that's why I think it is such an interesting plot point. We don't really know. LF didn't know Arya well at KL as he didn't seem to recognize her when he was with Tywin. If he had he may not have said anything at the time but he would have found a way to rescue her if for no other reason than she would have been an incredibly valuable hostage to go with Sansa. Arya knew exactly who he was though and saw LF openly plotting against her family with Tywin. So many ways it could go and that doesn't even account for Bran or Sansa getting involved. People may guess right or wrong how that plot ends up but it is the hardest to predict imo because you have so many people that study the story and are on opposite sides.

The only better line than "Chaos is a Ladder" that Bran could have dropped on LF though would be "I told you not to trust me" (the line he said to Ned as he put a knife to his throat.

ok so lets touch on the untold cersi prophecy one more time...

Is there any possibility that Arya kills Jamie and takes his face then turns around and kills Cersi? I think Jamie killing her would be more satisfying but would it still work if Arya took his face?

The actress who plays Alys (Megan Parkinson) isn't listed on the IMDB page for the episode, but Adele Smyth-Kennedy is listed as ""Littlefinger" Winterfell Spy"

bobinator said:

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The actress who plays Alys (Megan Parkinson) isn't listed on the IMDB page for the episode, but Adele Smyth-Kennedy is listed as ""Littlefinger" Winterfell Spy"

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Ok. I concede. I wasn't positive that it was Alys.

bobinator said:

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redline248 said:

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She has no reason to think he's vigilant enough to set a trap to catch her spying. Why use her face changing abilities when, in her mind, she doesn't have to?

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Because there's no downside to using them. There's only downside to not using them.

Everyone in Winterfell knows who she is, so why risk someone else randomly bumping into you while you're following Littlefinger around?

Anyway, I will say that there are some pretty good cases here that perhaps Arya is just vastly underestimating Littlefinger, but she was in the room with him and Tywin Lannister so she definitely knows he's a schemer though maybe not the full extent.

Just seems like a reach to me that she wouldn't disguise herself when that's her greatest skill.

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Well if she is herself, then there's no risk at all because she's allowed to walk around Winterfell freely. If she wears the face of someone else (that Frey girl) then someone might stop her and ask her who she is and why she's in the castle.

Honestly, let's just drop it. It's clear you're just purposely being obtuse.

In the very next sentence I said some people have laid out some pretty good cases, I just think it's a leap too far for her character to me. I don't think that's purposely obtuse, but we can certainly all just agree to disagree on that.

While on the topic of Arya in the last episode- what did the note she found in Littlefinger's room say? I haven't found any sort of explanation of it as of yet.

bobinator said:

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One more thing that also irks me slightly that I'd like the temperature of the board on...

Jon Snow finds out that Arya and Bran are alive in a Raven, and then the whole thing is brushed aside in ten seconds to talk about Bran seeing the army of the dead marching. This should be a huge moment for Jon's character, but it isn't. That made me a little sad.

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Yeah, that didn't ring true to me. I would have liked to see him more excited about that.

That reaction actually reminded me of the end of Interstellar. Different show, context, etc. but that aspect of it was similar. I won't go into detail on that movie, because I don't want to spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it.

OaklandAg06 said:

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While on the topic of Arya in the last episode- what did the note she found in Littlefinger's room say? I haven't found any sort of explanation of it as of yet.

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It's the note that Sansa wrote to Robb asking him to bend the knee to Joffrey