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Yes, exactly! Littlefinger never had reason to dig up dirt on Jon before. Even before he went to the wall, there wasn't any value in selling out a young Jon Snow, who he probably had never talked to before, to Robert. But now that Jon is KOTN and in line ahead of Sansa, he's suddenly much more interested in "how exactly" he is related to the Stark name.

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But so what?

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You don't see why that knowledge would have served him more effectively when Robert was king? Robert had a public vendetta against ALL Targaryens. LF was present when Robert ordered Dany's assasination while Ned was serving as the Hand. Can you imagine what would have happened if LF told Robert that another Targaryen was alive in his realm and being protected by his friend and advisor?

LF is an agent of chaos. If disclosing the information to Robert wasn't the best means of serving his purposes, blackmailing Ned would have been another possible avenue.

Re: Euron betraying Cersei

I made this same prediction last week. I think it's certainly possible.

Robert would have flipped his load had LF revealed that to him. Ned would probably have been executed old friend or not. Then LF gets a pat on the back and no real move up in the world.

My thought is that he finds something in the crypts at WF and his discovery is more recent.

jenn96 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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I just have a feeling he plans to align with Dany, the logical winner

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Are you an episode behind? lol

Sorry, not trying to be snarky...but how do you reconcile Euron destroying Dany's ally and fleet with hopes of eventually joining her? There's 0% chance he aligns with Dany. This was cemented in the last season when Yara basically outed Euron's intentions. He wants to marry Dany to usurp her power with his own. Ain't happenin.

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That's why I said it was a feeling. I don't think Dany will ally with him; I just think HE believes she will. If he destroys her fleet then she needs a new one, which he can provide. He uses the Dornish to get Cersei's trust, then turns on Cersei and gives her head/King's Landing/the Kingslayer/something to Dany to get her to ally with him. Again, I'm not 100% on that, I just got a strange vibe when Euron was talking to Cersei that he was playing a different game.

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His game is he wants to marry Cersi, bed her a few times, then find a nice cliff to throw her off of and stage it as an accident.

Independent George said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Assuming everything you just said happens regarding LF....so what?

1) He'll need proof or no one will believe him.
2) Even if he has proof, Jon's parentage as Half Stark/Half Targ would have to prove a problem for Sansa or the Northern folk

I'm not convinced of either of those happening. He's had Jon's entire life to investigate into his lineage. It's not news that Ned coming home with a ******* is now a strange occurrence.

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He has not had reason to seek out a weakness in Jon until very recently. Jon was at the wall completely out of the seven kingdoms issues until tBOB.

Now he has reason to find a weakness, the logical place to start would be to find out who is mother is.

As for proof, there is none really but Bran would likely speak up (reluctantly) and confirm.

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What would it do to Jon to find out that the man he spent his entire life believing was his father, loving and emulating, wasn't his father after all? Little finger is a very shrewd judge of character. Jon is more pragmatic than Ned but he still has a lot of the sense of honor that Ned instilled in him and if he knew that he wasn't Ned's son, how would it affect him? Would he stand down and insist that the seat of Winterfell and by default the Kingdom of the North were actually Sansa's by birth? Would he doubt himself? There are a lot of ways Littlefinger could screw with Jon even if the Lords of the North stood by him, which is not a sure thing. They might consider him a child of rape, a Targaryon ******* not a Stark. Would Sansa stand by Jon as King and Lord of Winterfell knowing that he wasn't even her brother, not one of Ned's sons at all? All hypotheticals (and I personally think Sansa would stand by Jon), but all ideas Littlefinger has to have bouncing around in his mind.

I think Jon's parentage is eventually confirmed by Howland Reed, not LF. Bran is now south of the wall and is in a position to locate Meera's father. I think he shows up at Winterfell with hopes of telling Jon who he really is.

I know the show hinted at the north folk mistrusting 'Targaryens' but I can't see any reason why Sansa would turn her back on Jon for being half Dragon. I still believe LF's angle will be something other than Jon's parentage.

jenn96 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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I just have a feeling he plans to align with Dany, the logical winner

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Are you an episode behind? lol

Sorry, not trying to be snarky...but how do you reconcile Euron destroying Dany's ally and fleet with hopes of eventually joining her? There's 0% chance he aligns with Dany. This was cemented in the last season when Yara basically outed Euron's intentions. He wants to marry Dany to usurp her power with his own. Ain't happenin.

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That's why I said it was a feeling. I don't think Dany will ally with him; I just think HE believes she will. If he destroys her fleet then she needs a new one, which he can provide. He uses the Dornish to get Cersei's trust, then turns on Cersei and gives her head/King's Landing/the Kingslayer/something to Dany to get her to ally with him. Again, I'm not 100% on that, I just got a strange vibe when Euron was talking to Cersei that he was playing a different game.

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I'm not going to completely discount it personally....would be a great twist.

Think about it this way:

Euron just got in good with Cersei - but what was his primary motivation. Getting Ellaria was a bonus in effect it meant nothing to Euron - he wanted to destroy Yara and the other ironborn traitors.

And I doubt he really wants to be second fiddle to Cersei. He also said give him the fleet of 1000 ships and he would give them the world....not some negotiated peace treaty with a queen ***** and bowing down to anyone.

He's the wildcard character here also...everyone else's motivations are pretty clear. Dany wants it all, Cersei too, Jon wants the north only and to prep for the real war with the army of the dead. Most of the others want their pice only and to be left alone really (except Littlefinger of course). But the rest of the kingdoms really just want their own kingdom and thats it. and none of them are loyal to Cersei.

Independent George said:

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Robert would have flipped his load had LF revealed that to him. Ned would probably have been executed old friend or not. Then LF gets a pat on the back and no real move up in the world.

My thought is that he finds something in the crypts at WF and his discovery is more recent.

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Maybe. But there is also the fact that Jon is Lyanna's son and if there is one man that could stand up to Robert and make him back down, it was Ned

I never thought how Jon will take it. It will come out one way or another. Doesn't matter if its Bran, Howland, Red Women, or LF.

Hopefully he doesn't go into a 3 episode brooding session to make peace with it.

Independent George said:

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I never thought how Jon will take it. It will come out one way or another. Doesn't matter if its Bran, Howland, Red Women, or LF.

Hopefully he doesn't go into a 3 episode brooding session to make peace with it.

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Lol. But really, Jon is probably not going to jump in the air and yell "I'm a bona fide prince!" I expect him to take the news pretty hard. Finding out that your whole life is a lie can be disconcerting.

CFTXAG10 said:

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Kinda hoping Arya uses Sansa's face to seduce and kill Littlefinger, so hopefully she finds the reason to do so

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i like that death for LF, but wouldn't that mean Sansa is dead also?

AgShaun00 said:

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CFTXAG10 said:

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Kinda hoping Arya uses Sansa's face to seduce and kill Littlefinger, so hopefully she finds the reason to do so

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i like that death for LF, but wouldn't that mean Sansa is dead also?

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Yea I didn't take that into account. I was just thinking how awesome it would be for him to finally think Sansa is giving into his advances only to be killed by Arya

Ultimately I dont' think Jon's parentage will have much of an effect on anything outside of the prophecy. the North is currently the only part of Westeros that actually seems to understand that who sits the Iron Throne means squat and the true war is coming from north of the wall.

Zombie Jon Snow said:

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jenn96 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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I just have a feeling he plans to align with Dany, the logical winner

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Are you an episode behind? lol

Sorry, not trying to be snarky...but how do you reconcile Euron destroying Dany's ally and fleet with hopes of eventually joining her? There's 0% chance he aligns with Dany. This was cemented in the last season when Yara basically outed Euron's intentions. He wants to marry Dany to usurp her power with his own. Ain't happenin.

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That's why I said it was a feeling. I don't think Dany will ally with him; I just think HE believes she will. If he destroys her fleet then she needs a new one, which he can provide. He uses the Dornish to get Cersei's trust, then turns on Cersei and gives her head/King's Landing/the Kingslayer/something to Dany to get her to ally with him. Again, I'm not 100% on that, I just got a strange vibe when Euron was talking to Cersei that he was playing a different game.

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I'm not going to completely discount it personally....would be a great twist.

Think about it this way:

Euron just got in good with Cersei - but what was his primary motivation. Getting Ellaria was a bonus in effect it meant nothing to Euron - he wanted to destroy Yara and the other ironborn traitors.

And I doubt he really wants to be second fiddle to Cersei. He also said give him the fleet of 1000 ships and he would give them the world....not some negotiated peace treaty with a queen ***** and bowing down to anyone.

He's the wildcard character here also...everyone else's motivations are pretty clear. Dany wants it all, Cersei too, Jon wants the north only and to prep for the real war with the army of the dead. Most of the others want their pice only and to be left alone really (except Littlefinger of course). But the rest of the kingdoms really just want their own kingdom and thats it. and none of them are loyal to Cersei.

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I'm pretty sure that neither Cersei or Dany fall for any of his bull**** and he's going to be dispatched by one of them within a few episodes.

Urban Ag said:

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Ultimately I dont' think Jon's parentage will have much of an effect on anything outside of the prophecy. the North is currently the only part of Westeros that actually seems to understand that who sits the Iron Throne means squat and the true war is coming from north of the wall.

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Until the Northern Lords turn their backs on Jon because "We can't trust a Targaryen". Or maybe him being a Targ will allow them to see that allying with Dany might not be all bad after all.

that is likely yes....just saying not 100% sure he is team Cersei all the way. He could pull a twist. But yes he should die either way. He is not going to be a player in the end...he is a pawn. Nothing more.

"I may be a Targ, but Ned will always be my father"

and scene.

When it comes to faces and possible uses for them, I don't think anyone else is looking at the big picture. LF's face is possibly the most valuable one in all of Westeros.

M.C. Swag said:

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Yes, exactly! Littlefinger never had reason to dig up dirt on Jon before. Even before he went to the wall, there wasn't any value in selling out a young Jon Snow, who he probably had never talked to before, to Robert. But now that Jon is KOTN and in line ahead of Sansa, he's suddenly much more interested in "how exactly" he is related to the Stark name.

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But so what?

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You don't see why that knowledge would have served him more effectively when Robert was king? Robert had a public vendetta against ALL Targaryens. LF was present when Robert ordered Dany's assasination while Ned was serving as the Hand. Can you imagine what would have happened if LF told Robert that another Targaryen was alive in his realm and being protected by his friend and advisor?

LF is an agent of chaos. If disclosing the information to Robert wasn't the best means of serving his purposes, blackmailing Ned would have been another possible avenue.

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To screw over Ned, sure. But Littlefinger was still making up his mind if Ned was good for him or bad for him. Besides, my point isn't to say that Littlefinger wouldn't have used the information HAD he known it, but that Jon was of such little consequence back then that he likely wouldn't have put all the pieces together back then.

If you remember back to season 1, Robert jokes with Ned about banging all those *****s back during the rebellion. He even recalls the names of a few of them. I'm not saying Littlefinger couldn't have used that information, but it was VERY well documented between Ned and Robert that Jon was a ******* born while they were fighting. Littlefinger asking some suspicious questions about all that would have likely turned into Robert telling Littlefinger how much of a wuss he was for not going to fight with them. Heck, I'm pretty sure Robert was convinced he knew the name of Jon's "mother". Robert may have had Littlefinger beheaded for calling Ned a liar.

Still, I don't think Littlefinger HAS figured it out. But I do think he COULD figure it out now that he is much more interested in Jon Snow.

M.C. Swag said:

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Urban Ag said:

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Ultimately I dont' think Jon's parentage will have much of an effect on anything outside of the prophecy. the North is currently the only part of Westeros that actually seems to understand that who sits the Iron Throne means squat and the true war is coming from north of the wall.

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Precisely. Getting over the hump of proving his parentage, I have yet to see any evidence that suggests it would even matter. He earned the crown on his own merits and he will always hold the loyalty of the Wildlings and Night's Watch. Sansa is still blood and Jon is still half Stark. Which is no different than they believe he already is.

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It WOULD matter ....IF he is one of THREE dragon riders.

What Targaryens are left alive:

1. Dany - duh
2. Jon
3. tbd

But I think it is Tyrion: He interacted with dragons without dying AND his mother died at birth, he was outcast by his dad and it's possible his dad is really Aerys the mad king who had Joanna at court several times and at his 10 year celebration. then Rhaella sent her away (despite tolerating his many dalliances) fearing they had a thing. Shortly after Tyrion was born.

So anyway it IS important if he is to be a dragon rider.

Otherwise it really is unimportant. But since it has been included in the TV version I can only assume it is important.

If it is unimportant then thats a lot of time to waste on Bran's story and the flashback scenes and the LF expositions and the talks in the crypt, etc etc....

Sort of self proving. imho.

Independent George said:

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I never thought how Jon will take it. It will come out one way or another. Doesn't matter if its Bran, Howland, Red Women, or LF.

Hopefully he doesn't go into a 3 episode brooding session to make peace with it.

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I WANT TO SEE HOWLAND REED.

Those seem like some mental gymnastics. I just disagree. Ned betraying his honor and keeping the mother a secret should have been incentive enough for LF to followup on. Its precisely the type of information he would seek and acquire. Again, the intended purpose of that information would never have been to hurt Jon...it would have been to hurt Ned. Or Robert through Ned. Either way, it should have aroused his suspicions well before and had he discovered the truth of it...there's no doubt in my mind that the time to use it was precisely when Ned was Hand to the King.

smokeythebear said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Yes, exactly! Littlefinger never had reason to dig up dirt on Jon before. Even before he went to the wall, there wasn't any value in selling out a young Jon Snow, who he probably had never talked to before, to Robert. But now that Jon is KOTN and in line ahead of Sansa, he's suddenly much more interested in "how exactly" he is related to the Stark name.

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Quote:

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But so what?

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You don't see why that knowledge would have served him more effectively when Robert was king? Robert had a public vendetta against ALL Targaryens. LF was present when Robert ordered Dany's assasination while Ned was serving as the Hand. Can you imagine what would have happened if LF told Robert that another Targaryen was alive in his realm and being protected by his friend and advisor?

LF is an agent of chaos. If disclosing the information to Robert wasn't the best means of serving his purposes, blackmailing Ned would have been another possible avenue.

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To screw over Ned, sure. But Littlefinger was still making up his mind if Ned was good for him or bad for him. Besides, my point isn't to say that Littlefinger wouldn't have used the information HAD he known it, but that Jon was of such little consequence back then that he likely wouldn't have put all the pieces together back then.

If you remember back to season 1, Robert jokes with Ned about banging all those *****s back during the rebellion. He even recalls the names of a few of them. I'm not saying Littlefinger couldn't have used that information, but it was VERY well documented between Ned and Robert that Jon was a ******* born while they were fighting. Littlefinger asking some suspicious questions about all that would have likely turned into Robert telling Littlefinger how much of a wuss he was for not going to fight with them. Heck, I'm pretty sure Robert was convinced he knew the name of Jon's "mother". Robert may have had Littlefinger beheaded for calling Ned a liar.

Still, I don't think Littlefinger HAS figured it out. But I do think he COULD figure it out now that he is much more interested in Jon Snow.

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I don't think he has figured it out (yet) either....but he is THERE in Winterfell and in the crypts and he is known to snoop around.

I've always doubted the Howland Reed angle for the TV show - I wouldn't base something so important on some character we've never really met (he wasn't even really emphasized in the TOJ flashback which was the time to do it). Plus having that proof (or confirmation with Bran) come from someone we barely know isn't a great idea.

I think Ned would have buried evidence with Lyanna in the crypt. And LF is there to discover it.

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I think Ned would have buried evidence with Lyanna in the crypt. And LF is there to discover it.

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Why would Ned bury evidence in the crypt? He didn't know he was going to die. He told Jon they would talk about his mother the next time he saw him. He had no idea that was the last time he would see Jon.

M.C. Swag said:

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Those seem like some mental gymnastics. I just disagree. Ned betraying his honor and keeping the mother a secret should have been incentive enough for LF to followup on. Its precisely the type of information he would seek and acquire. Again, the intended purpose of that information would never have been to hurt Jon...it would have been to hurt Ned. Or Robert through Ned. Either way, it should have aroused his suspicions well before and had he discovered the truth of it...there's no doubt in my mind that the time to use it was precisely when Ned was Hand to the King.

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So what is your argument then? That Littlefinger doesn't know? Or that he won't ever know? I think we both agree that he definitely didn't know back when Ned was alive.

Zombie Jon Snow said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Urban Ag said:

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Ultimately I dont' think Jon's parentage will have much of an effect on anything outside of the prophecy. the North is currently the only part of Westeros that actually seems to understand that who sits the Iron Throne means squat and the true war is coming from north of the wall.

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Precisely. Getting over the hump of proving his parentage, I have yet to see any evidence that suggests it would even matter. He earned the crown on his own merits and he will always hold the loyalty of the Wildlings and Night's Watch. Sansa is still blood and Jon is still half Stark. Which is no different than they believe he already is.

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It WOULD matter ....IF he is one of THREE dragon riders.

What Targaryens are left alive:

1. Dany - duh
2. Jon
3. tbd

But I think it is Tyrion: He interacted with dragons without dying AND his mother died at birth, he was outcast by his dad and it's possible his dad is really Aerys the mad king who had Joanna at court several times and at his 10 year celebration. then Rhaella sent her away (despite tolerating his many dalliances) fearing they had a thing. Shortly after Tyrion was born.

So anyway it IS important if he is to be a dragon rider.

Otherwise it really is unimportant. But since it has been included in the TV version I can only assume it is important.

If it is unimportant then thats a lot of time to waste on Bran's story and the flashback scenes and the LF expositions and the talks in the crypt, etc etc....

Sort of self proving. imho.

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Alot of moving parts here...The "3 dragons" deal is not the only important aspect of his heritage. At this point that particular plot of the stories is irrelevant to the show. And I can't see them stretching Tyrion into that familial fold. It would be too convoluted.

But here's where it is vitally important:

• In terms of uniting the realm. He represents a natural bridge between Westeros and Dany. And...
• Beyond that, it's precisely important in terms of the overarching prophecy...the Prince (or Princess) who was promised. The prophecy states that the prince will be born of Targaryen blood. Jon now fits into that prophecy and is by far the most important aspect of his lineage.

smokeythebear said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Those seem like some mental gymnastics. I just disagree. Ned betraying his honor and keeping the mother a secret should have been incentive enough for LF to followup on. Its precisely the type of information he would seek and acquire. Again, the intended purpose of that information would never have been to hurt Jon...it would have been to hurt Ned. Or Robert through Ned. Either way, it should have aroused his suspicions well before and had he discovered the truth of it...there's no doubt in my mind that the time to use it was precisely when Ned was Hand to the King.

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So what is your argument then? That Littlefinger doesn't know? Or that he won't ever know? I think we both agree that he definitely didn't know back when Ned was alive.

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I've stated it earlier. I think Jon's parentage is eventually confirmed by Howland Reed.

I think LF's angle is exactly what the show has been hinting...he'll continue to attempt to drive a wedge between Jon and Sansa.

Rex Racer said:

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I think Ned would have buried evidence with Lyanna in the crypt. And LF is there to discover it.

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Why would Ned bury evidence in the crypt? He didn't know he was going to die. He told Jon they would talk about his mother the next time he saw him. He had no idea that was the last time he would see Jon.

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You think Ned doesn't know he could die at any time...working for Robert Baratheon with the Lannisters running around and heading to KL. Or at the time of Lyanna's death. He knows he lives in a dangerous world and dangerous times and he is even in a dangerous position. He was confronted by threats numerous times just with what we saw. To assume otherwise would be naive at best and downright stupid at worst - I don't think Ned was stupid.

and "he had no idea that was the last time he would see Jon" is precisely the point. You never know when your number is up. All the more reason. you leave evidence as a fallback because you never know. He wanted to tell him personally but you never know when a young punk king is going to behead you.