Brienne is also in the same vein as those two but all three are not major characters.
Game of Thrones - Season 7
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Last: 6 yr ago by Definitely Not A Cop
Yep. Everytime you think the Doctor has finally outsmarted Davos, he comes back with a new Dalek plot.Dr. Watson said:
Davos and Sam are pretty genuine protagonists.
N'm, that's Davros.
They all seem that way; just wait.... (I know nothing).Dr. Watson said:
Davos and Sam are pretty genuine protagonists.
But you are right... there are a few that have seemed to be pretty virtuous; however, they do still have major character flaws:
Davos - was a smuggler and was "corrected" by Stannis and shortened his fingers
Sam - a craven and a coward, but follows directions - even when commanded to be brave
Jon - broke his vows to be with Egrit; left the watch (he's justified there)
Arya - may be doing good works, but is still sinister seeming
ChiliBeans said:Yep. Everytime you think the Doctor has finally outsmarted Davos, he comes back with a new Dalek plot.Dr. Watson said:
Davos and Sam are pretty genuine protagonists.
N'm, that's Davros.
I feel very geeky for both getting that and laughing at it.
SpreadsheetAg said:They all seem that way; just wait.... (I know nothing).Dr. Watson said:
Davos and Sam are pretty genuine protagonists.
But you are right... there are a few that have seemed to be pretty virtuous; however, they do still have major character flaws:
Davos - was a smuggler and was "corrected" by Stannis and shortened his fingers
Sam - a craven and a coward, but follows directions - even when commanded to be brave
Jon - broke his vows to be with Egrit; left the watch (he's justified there)
Arya - may be doing good works, but is still sinister seeming
You're right, none of them are pure heroes. I just think we sometimes overplay how gray all of the GoT characters are. Martin did a great job subverting some major tropes, but not all of them.
Don't all heroes have flaws? Isn't that part of the hero's journey in classic literature?
It may not be clear yet if there is one true hero of GoT, but I'm not sure how people don't automatically look to Jon as a hero. They gray area non-hero has become the main trope of serious TV these days. I think we get so used to talking about that on entertainment boards that we're slow to recognize when a show like GoT maybe does have some classic elements of the hero's journey or pilgrim's progress.
*(this comment was in reply to spreadsheet too)
It may not be clear yet if there is one true hero of GoT, but I'm not sure how people don't automatically look to Jon as a hero. They gray area non-hero has become the main trope of serious TV these days. I think we get so used to talking about that on entertainment boards that we're slow to recognize when a show like GoT maybe does have some classic elements of the hero's journey or pilgrim's progress.
*(this comment was in reply to spreadsheet too)
Agree, but very few stories have so many false heroes and false villains...ChiliBeans said:
Don't all heroes have flaws? Isn't that part of the hero's journey in classic literature?
It may not be clear yet if there is one true hero of GoT, but I'm not sure how people don't automatically look to Jon as a hero. They gray area non-hero has become the main trope of serious TV these days. I think we get so used to talking about that on entertainment boards that we're slow to recognize when a show like GoT maybe does have some classic elements of the hero's journey or pilgrim's progress.
*(this comment was in reply to spreadsheet too)
False Heroes who turn out critically flawed, bad or dead:
- Eddard Stark - dead
- Rob Stark - dead
- Littlefinger (at one time) - thought he might be good, he's not
- Theon - arrogant but decent, then horrible, then pitiable, now frustrating
- Renly - meh then dead
- Jorah - well, he at least gets more and more pitiable
- Arya - leaning sinister
- Catelyn - dead
- Roose - turncloak
- Frey(s) - turncloacks
- Stannis - dead
- Oberyn Martell - dead
- Tommen - dead
- Jeor Mormont - dead
- Robert - dead
So many characters you despise, but either come around or at least have their moments of pity:
- Jaimie - loves his sister, does some wicked things, but has his reasons; and seems to be becoming somewhat honorable - or at least torn between following his sisters orders and doing bad things
- Cersei - a real *****, but just loves her kids (and power); felt bad for her treatment by the high sparrow at the end, but she sure made me forget that quickly
- Tyrion - arrogant jerk at first; really maybe my favorite character now beside Jon
- Varys - sneaky and arrogant, but ultimately maybe the most loyal
- Sansa - such a dopey little girl, but finally learning to play the game and show some strength
- Jeoffery - nope nevermind; except that maybe I can see how he turned out that way with THAT mother
SpreadsheetAg said:Agree, but very few stories have so many false heroes and false villains...ChiliBeans said:
Don't all heroes have flaws? Isn't that part of the hero's journey in classic literature?
It may not be clear yet if there is one true hero of GoT, but I'm not sure how people don't automatically look to Jon as a hero. They gray area non-hero has become the main trope of serious TV these days. I think we get so used to talking about that on entertainment boards that we're slow to recognize when a show like GoT maybe does have some classic elements of the hero's journey or pilgrim's progress.
*(this comment was in reply to spreadsheet too)
False Heroes who turn out critically flawed, bad or dead:
- Eddard Stark - dead
- Rob Stark - dead
- Littlefinger (at one time) - thought he might be good, he's not
- Theon - arrogant but decent, then horrible, then pitiable, now frustrating
- Renly - meh then dead
- Jorah - well, he at least gets more and more pitiable
- Arya - leaning sinister
- Catelyn - dead
- Roose - turncloak
- Frey(s) - turncloacks
- Stannis - dead
- Oberyn Martell - dead
- Tommen - dead
- Jeor Mormont - dead
- Robert - dead
So many characters you despise, but either come around or at least have their moments of pity:
- Jaimie - loves his sister, does some wicked things, but has his reasons; and seems to be becoming somewhat honorable - or at least torn between following his sisters orders and doing bad things
- Cersei - a real *****, but just loves her kids (and power); felt bad for her treatment by the high sparrow at the end, but she sure made me forget that quickly
- Tyrion - arrogant jerk at first; really maybe my favorite character now beside Jon
- Varys - sneaky and arrogant, but ultimately maybe the most loyal
- Sansa - such a dopey little girl, but finally learning to play the game and show some strength
- Jeoffery - nope nevermind; except that maybe I can see how he turned out that way with THAT mother
that's because you haven't listed the REAL hero.....that is going to wipe out ALL of these terrible human beings.....
Has anyone thought that maybe the Night's King is a capitalist who is sick of dealing with millennia of feudalism and is really seeking an economic revolution? Perhaps he is the true genius of Westeros. After all, he's created the perfect industrial workforce.
I think Jon Snow dies but not before impregnating Dany bc he is the bringer of light or somesuch.
Dr. Watson said:
Has anyone thought that maybe the Night's King is a capitalist who is sick of dealing with millennia of feudalism and is really seeking an economic revolution? Perhaps he is the true genius of Westeros. After all, he's created the perfect industrial workforce.
/R/latestagecapitalism
Pam Poovey said:
I think Jon Snow dies but not before impregnating Dany bc he is the bringer of light or somesuch.
I CANNOT die.
Duncan Idaho said:Dr. Watson said:
Has anyone thought that maybe the Night's King is a capitalist who is sick of dealing with millennia of feudalism and is really seeking an economic revolution? Perhaps he is the true genius of Westeros. After all, he's created the perfect industrial workforce.
/R/earlystagecapitalism
Fify
Episode 1: 59 minutes.
Episode 2: 59 minutes.
Episode 3: 63 minutes.
Episode 4: 50 minutes.
Episode 5: 59 minutes.
Episode 6: 71 minutes.
Episode 7: 81 minutes.
http://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-season-7-running-times-revealed-record-length-season-finale-included/#more-145256
Episode 2: 59 minutes.
Episode 3: 63 minutes.
Episode 4: 50 minutes.
Episode 5: 59 minutes.
Episode 6: 71 minutes.
Episode 7: 81 minutes.
http://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-season-7-running-times-revealed-record-length-season-finale-included/#more-145256
442 minutes compared to about 550 for other seasons (10 x 55 minutes)
I don't understand the Littlefinger hate.
Ned Stark was stepping on his own dck and LF tried to help, then got out Neds way when Ned made the wrong decision.
Then he endears himself to Tywin, doing the bid of the crown to climb the latter.
He kills Joffrey. Causing the end of Tyrions career, tywins life, and free sansa.
He then betrays the Lannisters to solidify his alliance between North and the Vale.
The dude is the best player in the game. His actions when look at objectively: punish the villains of the show.
Ned Stark was stepping on his own dck and LF tried to help, then got out Neds way when Ned made the wrong decision.
Then he endears himself to Tywin, doing the bid of the crown to climb the latter.
He kills Joffrey. Causing the end of Tyrions career, tywins life, and free sansa.
He then betrays the Lannisters to solidify his alliance between North and the Vale.
The dude is the best player in the game. His actions when look at objectively: punish the villains of the show.
I mean...he also concocted the false letter sent to Catelyn Stark accusing the Lannisters of poisoning Jon Arryn, when in fact it was Littlefinger himself. That letter was the impetus for this entire ordeal. While he's certainly a formidable foe, his actions are entirely villainous.
Jon Arryn would have died if he continued to get close to Cercies secret.
Blaming the lannisters for it was probably the best thing for the starks. It got their guards up against the lannisters.
Blaming the lannisters for it was probably the best thing for the starks. It got their guards up against the lannisters.
lol The Starks already had a long standing feud with the Lannisters! Their 'guard' was already up. Listen, I get it, Littlefinger has mad game...but he is hardcore villain. Every action was entirely dictated by whether it helped or hurt his ascent. He wasn't some dispenser of justice, he was just a con man!The Debt said:
Jon Arryn would have died if he continued to get close to Cercies secret.
Blaming the lannisters for it was probably the best thing for the starks. It got their guards up against the lannisters.
That's not entirely accurate. His killing of joffrey was simply for the sake of chaos. He admitted to sansa it didn't help him, the play was a man with no motive arouses no suspicion.
But somehow I can't understand how acting in self-interest makes you a villain in this universe. No one's motives are pure, not Dany (power), not Arya(revenge), tyrion (now it just to be relevant). One might claim Jon has pure motives, to save the realms of man, but he has never played the game before and now he's in it.
But somehow I can't understand how acting in self-interest makes you a villain in this universe. No one's motives are pure, not Dany (power), not Arya(revenge), tyrion (now it just to be relevant). One might claim Jon has pure motives, to save the realms of man, but he has never played the game before and now he's in it.
Everything you said may be true and it would still make Little Finger villainous. His tactics are also sneaky and deceitful, and although they are clearly effective and extremely savvy, they are traits that will almost never inspire affection from most people.The Debt said:
That's not entirely accurate. His killing of joffrey was simply for the sake of chaos. He admitted to sansa it didn't help him, the play was a man with no motive arouses no suspicion.
But somehow I can't understand how acting in self-interest makes you a villain in this universe. No one's motives are pure, not Dany (power), not Arya(revenge), tyrion (now it just to be relevant). One might claim Jon has pure motives, to save the realms of man, but he has never played the game before and now he's in it.
Ok, so he either acts in self-interest or kills with wanton abandon lol. You don't actually believe LF is NOT a villain, do you? I know GRRM likes to write unique stories with complex characters (good guys do bad things/Bad guys do good things, etc), but his archtype is 100% antagonist.The Debt said:
That's not entirely accurate. His killing of joffrey was simply for the sake of chaos. He admitted to sansa it didn't help him, the play was a man with no motive arouses no suspicion.
But somehow I can't understand how acting in self-interest makes you a villain in this universe. No one's motives are pure, not Dany (power), not Arya(revenge), tyrion (now it just to be relevant). One might claim Jon has pure motives, to save the realms of man, but he has never played the game before and now he's in it.
As for pure motives:
Sam
Brienne
Davos (Was a former pirate but has repented and paid the price)
Ned
Jon (as you've mentioned)
Bran
Robb (Worst thing he did was break a betrothal for true (aka Pure) love)
Selmy
Pod
Shireen
Even Tommen was pure of heart (albeit a creation of incest)
And those are just the main characters from the show. There are even more in the books.
Who needs affection to rule?
i don't think feud is the right term. They had not dealt with each other in years... We have no other point of reference for a feud after Ned and Jaime crossed paths after aerys was killed.M.C. Swag said:
lol The Starks already had a long standing feud with the Lannisters!
It's not like winterfell and casterly rock were constantly at odds.
the greyjoy rebellion was probably the last time they met up and we don't know WTF happened, so calling it a feud is not correct.
/nerd moment over
Lol Ok, call it whatever you want (if you want to argue semantics), the point was the Starks weren't buddy-buddy with the Lannisters. They were skeptically tolerant at best. Ned was alway leary of Jamie and the North and the "south" have always had their geopolitical differences. The OP to whom I was responding made the point that LFs letter helped the Starks "guard" themselves from the Lannisters. That is the equivalent of North Korea warning us about Russia. You think our guard was ever down agaisnt those guys? That was my point.
(Also, most of us have read the books and participate on a forum dedicated to S7 of the show. Think we all reside pretty far on the nerd spectrum lol)
(Also, most of us have read the books and participate on a forum dedicated to S7 of the show. Think we all reside pretty far on the nerd spectrum lol)
Lets take a look at some of LF's actions and divide into good/bad.
Bad:
Possibly lied about Lyanna being kidnapped to set off this whole set of events.
Poisoned Jon Arynn then wrote the letter blaming the Lannisters.
Betrayed Ned.
Runs brothels and is willing to enable torture for the right price (ie. women for Joffrey to kill)
Kills Lysa (she deserved it of course though)
Marries Sansa to Ramsey (doesn't matter if he knew Ramsey was a psychopath or not)
Good:
Kills Joffrey, saving Sansa.
Gives Lady Tyrell dirt on Cersei for High Sparrow
Comes to aid in the BOB.
Bad:
Possibly lied about Lyanna being kidnapped to set off this whole set of events.
Poisoned Jon Arynn then wrote the letter blaming the Lannisters.
Betrayed Ned.
Runs brothels and is willing to enable torture for the right price (ie. women for Joffrey to kill)
Kills Lysa (she deserved it of course though)
Marries Sansa to Ramsey (doesn't matter if he knew Ramsey was a psychopath or not)
Good:
Kills Joffrey, saving Sansa.
Gives Lady Tyrell dirt on Cersei for High Sparrow
Comes to aid in the BOB.
Again, even his "good" actions were entirely motivated for selfish reasons. Like the joker, he's an agent of chaos. He never did anything out of sheer goodwill, nor has he truly sacrificed anything for the sole benefit of the other. Killing Joffrey helped Sansa, sure, but it also helped him sow seeds of discord and put himself in a position to effectively trade Sansa. He didn't come to Sansas rescue until he could manipulate Jeffrey's death and pin it on another innocent man (Tyrion).
Coming to the aid at the BoB has yet to play out but it's obvious he's trying to establish a credit score of "loyalty" from Sansa/Jon for an eventual power play down the line. He definitely didn't do it just because "it was simply the right thing to do."
Coming to the aid at the BoB has yet to play out but it's obvious he's trying to establish a credit score of "loyalty" from Sansa/Jon for an eventual power play down the line. He definitely didn't do it just because "it was simply the right thing to do."
Holy cow. I've never really considered that LF might be the source of this Lyanna/kidnapping story. If so, is he the catalyst for this entire saga?Independent George said:
Lets take a look at some of LF's actions and divide into good/bad.
Bad:
Possibly lied about Lyanna being kidnapped to set off this whole set of events.
AgLaw said:Holy cow. I've never really considered that LF might be the source of this Lyanna/kidnapping story. If so, is he the catalyst for this entire saga?Independent George said:
Lets take a look at some of LF's actions and divide into good/bad.
Bad:
Possibly lied about Lyanna being kidnapped to set off this whole set of events.
Lol nah, LF would have been only a boy at the time and don't think he was quite the master mind he is currently. Regardless of that, he was certainly not in a position to provide credible intelligence on Rhaegars "kidnapping." Remember his position within the realm was not as lofty as it currently is.
But LF is certainly responsible for kickstarting the North (Robb's) rebellion.
You're right. Which makes me feel better about never considering it before.
1. Good post.The Debt said:
I don't understand the Littlefinger hate.
Ned Stark was stepping on his own dck and LF tried to help, then got out Neds way when Ned made the wrong decision.
Then he endears himself to Tywin, doing the bid of the crown to climb the latter.
He kills Joffrey. Causing the end of Tyrions career, tywins life, and free sansa.
He then betrays the Lannisters to solidify his alliance between the North and the Vale.
The dude is the best player in the game. His actions when look at objectively: punish the villains of the show.
2. Grammar NAZI
HBO may push Game of Thrones' final season to 2019, and that wouldn't be a bad thing
https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/2/15731682/hbo-game-of-thrones-season-8-2019-speculation
Quote:
In an interview with Entertainment Weekly, HBO programming chief Casey Bloys hinted that the eighth season (only six episodes long) might not air until 2019.
-
The interviewer then asked, more explicitly, "So as of now, the final season could air in 2018 and / or in 2019 depending on their needs?" To which Bloys responded, "Yeah. They have to write the episodes and figure out the production schedule. We'll have a better sense of that once they get further into the writing." It's pretty vague, but it certainly implies that HBO has given Benioff and Weiss permission to take their time.
Though a Westeros-free 2018 would obviously disappoint Game of Thrones fans who can no longer fathom a summer without the show (me, too!), it's possible that it's... a good thing.
https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/2/15731682/hbo-game-of-thrones-season-8-2019-speculation
It's not a good thing. It's a thing I will suffer through if I must, but I will be pissed.
Hopefully January?