*** ARRIVAL *** (Amy Adams, Jeremy Renner, dir. Denis Villeneuve)

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OldArmy71
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As I understand it, her ability to read the alien language rewires her brain so that time is fluid for her.

But the movie shows that she is teaching other people, her students, to read the language as well. So are their minds being rewired too? Will the language rewire the mind of anyone who learns it? So the world is going to be filled with people with that sense of time?

What happened to all that stuff that an earlier poster was saying about free will and determinism? Is that in the story? It's certainly not in the movie.

schmendeler
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CorpsAg11 said:

TCTTS said:

Sorry it didn't have enough explosions for some of you, but man, Arrival is the reason I go to the movies, and why I want to make them. Holy crap. Even knowing what happens, it's just jaw-dropping at times. Yes, it's super measured and subtle, but I was not once bored. Overall, I don't know that I've ever seen hard core sci-fi like that mixed with such an emotional/human, gut-punch of an ending. To the point where I'm legit shocked this movie even got made. I seriously might see it again in theaters, and it's probably my favorite of the year so far. Denis Villeneuve can do no wrong.
This post is just dripping with condescension. I actually thought the movie was pretty good despite it having some serious flaws, but people like you are why I don't trust movie critics.... So much intellectual elitism.


But I bet you would have liked more 'splosions, though, right?
Bruce Almighty
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I thought it was wonderful and the best science fiction movie of the year. It's better than Interstellar and maybe even The Martian from last year. After that, you may have to go back to the 90s to find a better hard scifi movie than this.
TCTTS
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OldArmy71 said:

As I understand it, her ability to read the alien language rewires her brain so that time is fluid for her.

But the movie shows that she is teaching other people, her students, to read the language as well. So are their minds being rewired too? Will the language rewire the mind of anyone who learns it? So the world is going to be filled with people with that sense of time?

What happened to all that stuff that an earlier poster was saying about free will and determinism? Is that in the story? It's certainly not in the movie.


I think that eventually, yes, through her teachings, the world would learn to experience time just as she did by mastering the alien's language. I don't know that the filmmakers necessarily intended to make that point, and it's probably up for interpretation, but it can definitely be viewed that way.

As for the the free will and determinism stuff, I honestly don't remember the intricacies of the earlier draft of the script (it should still be linked to in the OP for those who want to read it), but I still got the impression that Louise had free will. The whole point of the movie was that she still conscientiously made the decision to have her daughter, even knowing what would happen to her. I'm sure there are plenty of intellectual/theological arguments to me made as to why that's not truly free will, but either way, I thought it was a beautiful message.
LCE
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Maybe I fell asleep, but did either one of the main characters get pissed they almost got killed after the explosion?
Definitely Not A Cop
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Thought it was really good. Only thing I was disappointed about was that we never saw why the Aliens needed Earth's help.

If they do a sequel, it has be just the same movie backwards right?
Sex Panther
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Champ Bailey said:

Thought it was really good. Only thing I was disappointed about was that we never saw why the Aliens needed Earth's help.

That doesn't matter
k20dub
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I had this same exact thought. If the language is the weapon, and she is seen teaching it and wrote a book about it...wouldn't everyone be able to see their future.

Great movie though. Best I've seen this year. Had my full attention the whole time. Still wrapping my head around the theory of her knowing what was going on already when she showed up to class.
Aggie_Journalist
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TCTTS said:


As for the the free will and determinism stuff, I honestly don't remember the intricacies of the earlier draft of the script (it should still be linked to in the OP for those who want to read it), but I still got the impression that Louise had free will. The whole point of the movie was that she still conscientiously made the decision to have her daughter, even knowing what would happen to her. I'm sure there are plenty of intellectual/theological arguments to me made as to why that's not truly free will, but either way, I thought it was a beautiful message.


I haven't had time to see the movie yet, but reading some reviews, it sounds like they tidied some things up from the script - though not this basic paradox of how you can mix free will with seeing the future.

If you can see only one future, and that's the future that comes true, then you don't seem to have much free will.

If you can see all possible futures and pick the one you like, that means you have free will, but it kind of precludes anyone else from having free will, because it suggests their choices can't impact your future.

If you can view all possible futures but never know which one you'll get because they're impacted by the decisions of others, we kind of already operate that way... in the morning, I can picture 100 different ways my day might go, and then the outcome of the day is determined by my decisions and the decisions of others, so I don't really need an alien to teach me how to see the future if the future is constantly in motion because everyone has free will. (Though that would be a major mind f--- to constantly be aware of each of the infinite possibilities of how every moment of the rest of my life could play out, updated every nanosecond or viewed as a diminishing infinite, rather than just seeing the 100 possible outcomes of any situation I can imagine with my hopes and my fears.)
Definitely Not A Cop
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Sex Panther said:

Champ Bailey said:

Thought it was really good. Only thing I was disappointed about was that we never saw why the Aliens needed Earth's help.

That doesn't matter
Well, it didn't really matter relative to the story they were telling, but I still would have liked to know. It was the whole impetus to them coming to Earth, I just would have like to see what scared them so badly.
agmag90
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I liked the movie. I one of the "dream sequences" scenes, Amy Adams is talking to Jeremy Renner and then the camera switches angles and reveals one of the aliens in the room with them.

Did anyone else immediately think of Villeneuve's "Enemy"?
Sex Panther
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agmag90 said:

I liked the movie. I one of the "dream sequences" scenes, Amy Adams is talking to Jeremy Renner and then the camera switches angles and reveals one of the aliens in the room with them.

Did anyone else immediately think of Villeneuve's "Enemy"?

Yes, 100%
bobinator
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I don't really have anything to add to the conversation, but just wanted to say that I thought this was the best movie I've seen in a long time. Especially from a "still thinking about it" perspective.
G Martin 87
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Champ Bailey said:

Sex Panther said:

Champ Bailey said:

Thought it was really good. Only thing I was disappointed about was that we never saw why the Aliens needed Earth's help.

That doesn't matter
Well, it didn't really matter relative to the story they were telling, but I still would have liked to know. It was the whole impetus to them coming to Earth, I just would have like to see what scared them so badly.
It's not even addressed in the short story. Louise says that they never learned why the aliens came. The first version of the screenplay introduced a cliched "we're here to help you" reason. The final version is preferable and truer to the short story themes about how the heptapods perceive time.
Punked Shank
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Bruce Almighty said:

I thought it was wonderful and the best science fiction movie of the year. It's better than Interstellar and maybe even The Martian from last year. After that, you may have to go back to the 90s to find a better hard scifi movie than this.


Interstellar is one of my favorite movies. I think arrival doesn't come close to the story of Interstellar but that's just me. Haven't seen the Martian yet.
israeliag
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Loved this movie. This is what science fiction is supposed to be. After having Interstellar I (which is one of my all-time favorites), I was skeptical we'd get another one, much less so quick! Think about it: We had many years between 2001, Contact, and Interstellar, and then within two years we get this!

Such a great film, both from a unique story that could only be told through a sci-fi genre, and from it's portrayal of both the importance and the dangers of communication. Which could not have come in a more poingant time.

The only qualm I had with this film, and it's nearly impossible to avoid when you deal with time-travel, is that the solution to the problem was a paradox. She couldn't have called the general had he not told her what she told him, but he wouldn't have told her that had she not called him. But - I guess that is tempered a bit with the circular motif so well weaved: the heptapod's language were all circles, Hannah's name being a paladrom, even the film starting with the end and ending with a start of sorts (Renner saying let's make a baby).
OldArmy71
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Quote:

The only qualm I had with this film, and it's nearly impossible to avoid when you deal with time-travel, is that the solution to the problem was a paradox.

Good point.

To continue that train of thought, why didn't Jeremy Renner learn the language, become fluid in time, and then choose not to make a baby?
G Martin 87
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Despite appearances from the movie (and any slight similarities to Interstellar), the story has nothing at all to do with time *travel*. The heptapods perceive time differently than humans, and their written language (Heptapod B in the short story) fits hand in glove with that. Their spoken language (Heptapod A, mostly ignored in the movie) is sequential, like human language. Heptapod B allows an expert user, like Louise and the heptapods themselves, to be aware of the future and past simultaneously with the present. In the scene with the General, Louise is literally *remembering* a conversation that will take place in the future. It's a crucial distinction. I'll explain more fully later. The final version of the screenplay stays closer to the author's concept than the script that TCTTS posted at the beginning of the thread.
G Martin 87
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OldArmy71 said:


Quote:

The only qualm I had with this film, and it's nearly impossible to avoid when you deal with time-travel, is that the solution to the problem was a paradox.

Good point.

To continue that train of thought, why didn't Jeremy Renner learn the language, become fluid in time, and then choose not to make a baby?
Because (1) he's a physicist, not a linguist, and (2) that's not how Heptapod B works. The seeming contradiction between knowing your future and free will is the most important theme of the story. The movie got it mostly right, but didn't explore it completely.
israeliag
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G Martin 87 said:

Despite appearances from the movie (and any slight similarities to Interstellar), the story has nothing at all to do with time *travel*. The heptapods perceive time differently than humans, and their written language (Heptapod B in the short story) fits hand in glove with that. Their spoken language (Heptapod A, mostly ignored in the movie) is sequential, like human language. Heptapod B allows an expert user, like Louise and the heptapods themselves, to be aware of the future and past simultaneously with the present. In the scene with the General, Louise is literally *remembering* a conversation that will take place in the future. It's a crucial distinction. I'll explain more fully later. The final version of the screenplay stays closer to the author's concept than the script that TCTTS posted at the beginning of the thread.
Not to devolve into to too scientific of a discussion (or in that case would it be evolve?), but isn't the transmission of information over time in itself time-travel? Sure, people might not be moving willingly through time in an H.G. Wells type of way, but information and, as a result, causation is moving non-linearly through time. If that's not time-travel, than whatever define that as is what I meant

Anyway, sounds like I need to read the short.
Atreides Ornithopter
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you mean the Heptapod B written language is basically the worm hole aliens in Deep Space time.
G Martin 87
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bobinator said:

I don't really have anything to add to the conversation, but just wanted to say that I thought this was the best movie I've seen in a long time. Especially from a "still thinking about it" perspective.
Story of Your Life / Arrival is the best example of a classical sci-fi story I've seen in a long time. This is what thoughtful sci-fi stories are supposed to do: raise a fascinating question (does knowledge of the future preclude free will?), set up a situation to explore the possibilities (alien language changes perception of time), and then tell a good story with characters to answer the question.
TCTTS
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G Martin 87
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TCTTS said:


Good stuff in this feed! Especially this little bit about Fermat's Principle, which is key. Too bad this got cut.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxPUIorVEAA4bQF?format=jpg&name=large
G Martin 87
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Here's the more detailed explanation I promised earlier. Please understand that I'm not complaining about the movie version. I'm obviously a big fan of the short story. The initial screenplay that TCTTS posted had some significant changes that I was less happy about (q.v. my earlier posts if you're curious), but the final version in the movie was much better than the first one IMO. I did enjoy the movie. If you'd prefer not to augment your movie experience with the source material, that's absolutely fine. (Lots of GOT fans don't read the books, either.) For those who want to delve deeper, read on. SPOILERS AHEAD FOR BOTH THE MOVIE AND THE SHORT STORY.

I mentioned above that the story explores an interesting, age-old question: if you know your own future, do you still have free will? The story tries to answer this question directly while the movie does so more obliquely. Ted Chiang (the author) sets up the question three ways, none of which translate perfectly to a movie.

First, he writes the story in 1st person and intersperses the plot with Louise's recollections about her daughter's life. These are written with a mixture of past and future verb tenses that make the timing of the events unclear. The movie settles for making these vignettes intrude on Louise's present. This works well enough, although it does imply that Louise is experiencing the future directly while in the present.

Second, Chiang spends a lot of time in the story describing the linguistic discovery process that leads to Louise's understanding of the heptapods' languages -- spoken as well as written. The voiceover exposition in the middle of the movie tries to fill in these gaps. Louise realizes that writing in Heptapod B (the ink circles in the movie) requires the writer to produce the beginning, middle, and end of the "sentence" simultaneously. Human written languages, even ideogrammatic languages like Chinese, are sequentially written and organized. This is because human perception and thinking is oriented towards linear cause and effect. The heptapods' written language demonstrates that their perception and thinking is oriented towards purpose (aka teleological.) Did you notice that the heptapods have no "front" or "back"? Their own anatomy -- a barrel like body perched on seven articulated limbs -- is a clue.

Third, Chiang uses Fermat's Principle of Least Time as an analogy to explain what a teleological view of time might look like. In short, a ray of light minimizes the time required to travel between two points, even if the path it takes is actually longer in length that the shortest distance. In other words, the ray of light appears to "know" its own future. The ray of light is "writing" the beginning, middle, and end all at the same time. Like Heptapod B.

With these three elements, Chiang then springs the question: If your life is written in the "Book of Ages" and you read the story of your life, what happens to free will? As Chiang says, in a Greek tragedy the protagonist would do everything possible to avoid fulfilling his/her fate and change the future, but to no avail. Louise knows what will happen -- she will have a child who eventually dies from an accident (cancer in the movie.) Her future is thus already "written". Can she change it?

Chiang's answer is this:
Quote:

For the heptapods, all language was performative. Instead of using language to inform, they used language to actualize. Sure, heptapods already knew what would be said in any conversation; but in order for their knowledge to be true, the conversation would have to take place.
He follows this immediately with a passage in which Louise "remembers" reading the story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears to her (future) daughter. Louise intentionally gets the story wrong to tease her.
Quote:

"That's not how the story goes."
"Well if you already know how the story goes, why do you need me to read it to you?"
"'Cause I wanna hear it!"

Louise explains later that usually her consciousness "crawls along as it did before, a glowing sliver crawling forward in time". But when she cuts over into "thinking" in Heptapod B, she perceives her entire existence, including the portion involving her daughter, simultaneously. She glimpses -- or remembers -- the future. In the movie, this is what happened with her future conversation with the General.

As for the heptapods' purpose in visiting Earth, Chiang provides none. The movie says that the heptapods know that they will need humanity's help 3,000 years in the future. So their visit to Earth, like Louise's phone call to the General, must happen in order for their story to be true. Another neat point: in the movie, the heptapods use their word for "weapon" to refer to their writing system. Louise thinks they really mean "tool", but it works either way. Knowledge of your own future is serious business. A sword that cuts both ways, if you will.

Louise ends the story this way, using the analogy of Fermat's Principle: (I'll spoiler tag this, just in case.)
From the beginning I knew my destination, and I chose my route accordingly. But am I working toward an extreme of joy, or of pain? Will I achieve a minimum, or a maximum?
These questions are in my mind when your father asks me, "Do you want to make a baby?" And I smile and answer, "Yes," and I unwrap his arms from around me, and we hold hands as we walk inside to make love, to make you.
OldArmy71
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I appreciate you taking the time to write that out.

So according to the story, does Louise have free will, or not? According to the movie, her husband leaves her because she at some point admits to him that she chose to marry him and to have the baby even though she knew what would happen to the baby. Aside from the fact that he turns out to be a jerk, and she does what she does knowing that's what he will do, is it a fair accusation on his part to blame her for what happens?
G Martin 87
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OldArmy71 said:

I appreciate you taking the time to write that out.

So according to the story, does Louise have free will, or not? According to the movie, her husband leaves her because she at some point admits to him that she chose to marry him and to have the baby even though she knew what would happen to the baby. Aside from the fact that he turns out to be a jerk, and she does what she does knowing that's what he will do, is it a fair accusation on his part to blame her for what happens?
Yes, I think it's a fair accusation for Gary/Ian to make, given that he is thinking sequentially and not teleologically. IMO, Chiang is suggesting that the concept of free will is meaningless from a teleological, Heptapod B, Fermat's Principle point of view.

EDIT: Changed some wording above to make my point clearer. Also, it's interesting that the initial screenplay gave a different reason for the heptapods' visit. In that version, the heptapods were searching for a way to have free will within their teleological view of time. Abbott's death represented a personal choice that didn't follow the "script." I'm glad this was scrapped in the final version.
OldArmy71
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Thank you again for your lengthy post. Lots to think about. I may have to dig up that story.
TCTTS
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Really cool way to think about it.
israeliag
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<mindblown.gif>
Guitarsoup
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I actually knew Amy Adams' husband growing up. His whole family got to go to the premier and they said it is excellent.
FancyKetchup14
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I saw it tonight and had the same reaction I did after Interstellar, something like this:



I thought it was very well done. Really interesting story and great acting all around but Amy Adams was fantastic. In my top 3 for 2016 so far along with Civil War and Hell or High Water.
Saxsoon
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WestTexasAg14 said:

I saw it tonight and had the same reaction I did after Interstellar, something like this:



I thought it was very well done. Really interesting story and great acting all around but Amy Adams was fantastic. In my top 3 for 2016 so far along with Civil War and Hell or High Water.
Pretty much my top 3
TCTTS
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Arrival and Hell or High Water are definitely my top two as well so far. (Civil War isn't in my top ten, though.)
FancyKetchup14
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What's your top 3 so far?

Number 3 is a toss-up for me. I could easily swap Everybody Wants Some!! in place of Civil War to round out my top 3 along with Arrival and HoHW.
 
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