***Official GAME OF THRONES Season 7 (Book Readers/No show-specific spoilers)***

44,062 Views | 277 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by Goose06
Swing Your Saber
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Narratively the show is about conflict. I do not think 13 episodes is enough time to have a big fight between Daenery and Cersei, and a fight between the north and Danery, and a fight between Man and White Walkers. They could pick the pace up and pull it off, but I do not think they will. However, subverting traditional expectations about (good looking) underdog heroes joining forces to defeat the ultimate bad guy is 100% in line with the Song of Ice and Fire.

3) I'm confused, did you just talk yourself out of your own argument?


See my previous post:

4. If the show can be finished in 13 episodes I do not think there is enough time to have a major Dragons v. the North plot line. I think in the show Daenery shows up planning "Fire and Blood" conquest but is convinced to "break the wheel" and find common ground with her enemies. Probably with a lot of guidance from Tyrion. I think the "war for the dawn" will be futile and the ultimate resolution with the White Walkers will come from some peace treaty. Possibly brokered by Bran.

5. That said I can easily see (maybe 1/3 chance) Daenery becomes the new "big bad" and there is some conflict between her and the North. However, as D&D have said season 7 will focus on Cersei's character ark I doubt they have 5-7 episodes on Cersei and then 5-8 episodes about Danery fighting the North. That seems to compressed. Especially with Little Finger and all the other unresolved plots floating around.

I am not sure how you are confused. I think there is about a 1/3 chance Daenery fights the north and a 2/3 chance she does not.
PatAg
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AG
quote:
quote:


quote:
Narratively the show is about conflict. I do not think 13 episodes is enough time to have a big fight between Daenery and Cersei, and a fight between the north and Danery, and a fight between Man and White Walkers. They could pick the pace up and pull it off, but I do not think they will. However, subverting traditional expectations about (good looking) underdog heroes joining forces to defeat the ultimate bad guy is 100% in line with the Song of Ice and Fire.

3) I'm confused, did you just talk yourself out of your own argument?


See my previous post:

4. If the show can be finished in 13 episodes I do not think there is enough time to have a major Dragons v. the North plot line. I think in the show Daenery shows up planning "Fire and Blood" conquest but is convinced to "break the wheel" and find common ground with her enemies. Probably with a lot of guidance from Tyrion. I think the "war for the dawn" will be futile and the ultimate resolution with the White Walkers will come from some peace treaty. Possibly brokered by Bran.

5. That said I can easily see (maybe 1/3 chance) Daenery becomes the new "big bad" and there is some conflict between her and the North. However, as D&D have said season 7 will focus on Cersei's character ark I doubt they have 5-7 episodes on Cersei and then 5-8 episodes about Danery fighting the North. That seems to compressed. Especially with Little Finger and all the other unresolved plots floating around.

I am not sure how you are confused. I think there is about a 1/3 chance Daenery fights the north and a 2/3 chance she does not.
What are you on?
Swing Your Saber
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quote:

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I am not saying I think Daenery and Jon fight, but it does make emotional, logical, and narrative sense for them to do so.

In universe the north rebelled against evil rulers, however just because a "good" ruler shows up does not mean they have any desire to surrender their independence. In both the show and books the Targaryens are hated by the north, and just because Daenery seems good to the viewers does not mean that is how they will perceive her. If King George had been replaced by a better King, do the colonists decide against revolution? The grievances were against the State, not a single individual. Thus the north may similarly not care who sits on the Iron Throne, they may still want to remain free from southern rule.
1) Please read that highlighted sentence again. How in the world does that correlate with the fictional sentiments of the north? Their grievances are EXPLICITLY PERSONAL. The North did NOT rebel against an oppressive government, the STARKS rebelled against a murderer and false king. By proxy of allegiance, the rest of the North followed suit. There is 0 evidence in the show or books that the North was fighting for 'independence.' And again, please tell me exactly what they would gain that they did not already possess? This is 2 families at war, the Lannisters and Starks, not 2 nations.

Based on the above, I have no clue how anyone can infer the North is now intolerant to any future rulers. Jon Snow, the now King of the North, has shown time and time again that he has no desire to rule. In his own words, he's "tired of fighting." He wants peace. If bending the knee to a just ruler (such as Dany has been shown to be, especially with the counsel of Tyrion, a man Jon respects), I don't see why you think they wouldn't do so.

2) Yes, traditionally there has been bad blood between the North (Starks) and the Targaryens, which all came to a boil with the Mad King murdering Neds father and his son, Rhaegar, "kidnapping" Neds sister. But here's the bridge to that conflict....

Jon Snow IS HALF TARGARYEN.

When you boil it down, Jon and Dany have no cause to hate each other. They have not wronged each other, nor do they possess conflicting aspirations. Combine that with point 1 and the fact that Jon is her biological nephew, it does in fact make no logical, narrative, or emotional sense for them to fight. (Not yet anyways)

I feel anyone who thinks otherwise is reading a bit too much into it.


1. History is replete with feudal nations fighting for their independence. Often wars started over slights between the ruling kings. For six thousand years humans have been fighting against foreign rule in order to place a local king on the throne. Moreover, in the show and book the north declared Rob King in the North.The northern lords expressly declared their independence and explicitly spoke about how southern lords had been ruling them for to long. The books talk about the onerous tax burden and debt schemes arising from the seven kingdoms. I do not recall if the show ever mentions taxes. To explicitly answer your question they gain
a) local rule and all the tangible and psychological benefits it brings (which they expressly mention in the show and book)
b) an end to kingdom taxes
c) freedom from kingdom debts
d) freedom from being called to fight in southerners wars (as they had done numerous times & expressly complain about in the books)
e) I can keep going


Jon Snow does not know Danereys is a just ruler. She is coming with a Dothraki hoard and Greyjoy ships. Neither of which is conductive to peaceful rule. He may not want to fight but has demonstrated he is willing to.


2) The bad blood between the Targaryans and the Starks goes back to the conquest of Westeros. It is hundreds of years old. The Mad King was just the last in a long line. More at this time Jon has no idea he is half Targaryan. Jon's blood may be how it is ultimately resolved, but at this time Bran is the only living person we know who knows.

Now individually Jon and Danerey have never met and have no cause to be in conflict. However if Danereys demands the knee and Jon feels it is his duty to protect northern independence then conflict can arise.

Thus it absolutely makes narrative, logical, and emotional sense for them to fight. That said, as I said in my previous posts, I think there is only about a 1/3 chance the show goes in that direction. D&D are trying to wrap things up and resolve the story. I do not think they introduce this wrinkle.
Swing Your Saber
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GRRM has been writing for over 40 years. In only one of his books was violence the way to a happy ending. Even then it was only a quasi happy ending. Peace treaties, mutual understanding, learning to put aside differences is at the center of every single remotely happy ending in all of his many works. With one exception in all his many writings violence always begets more violence. In his magnum opus he is not going to suddenly renounce his life long philosophies and have some great war be the final solution.

Edit: It is would be in keeping with his other works if the White Walkers wiped out all life. However he has said this will have a "bitter sweet" ending. We also know originally he planned on having five of the Game of Thrones POV charterers survive the series. Neither a bitter sweet ending, nor five human survivors is conductive to White Walkers wiping out all life. So we can surmise there will be some kind of resolution that leaves humans alive. That resolution will not come from war.
M.C. Swag
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AG
Oookay
smokeythebear
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No offense intended, but I basically disagree with 70%-80% of what SYS said. I'm not really sure I have time to break down all the different parts that I disagree with or my reason for disagreeing, but suffice to say, I don't agree with much.

Who knows what will happen, but one thing I do know is that no one will be correct.
The Dog Lord
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Did most people agree that Lyanna said Jon's true name is Jaehaerys? I just watched the episode again, and it REALLY looked like Aegon to me after rewatching that scene several times.
redline248
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I would imagine most people have no idea what she said. I read that the decision to not have the name audible was so that viewers wouldn't be confused by a name that was not "Jon."
The Dog Lord
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quote:
I would imagine most people have no idea what she said. I read that the decision to not have the name audible was so that viewers wouldn't be confused by a name that was not "Jon."
That's pretty sad if true.
israeliag
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Honest q: is there an impact of what his true name is?
Al Bula
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Nope, he is a basterd.
redline248
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Even if he wasn't a b-stard it wouldn't matter, imo.
The Dog Lord
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Honest q: is there an impact of what his true name is?

I don't think so. I'm just not ready for the GoT offseason and need something to discuss.
M.C. Swag
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It would be interesting from a Show/Book dynamic if his name was Aegon. (in terms of confirming to readers that Aegon of the books is a fraud)
smokeythebear
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quote:
I would imagine most people have no idea what she said. I read that the decision to not have the name audible was so that viewers wouldn't be confused by a name that was not "Jon."
I understand this was said by the directors after the fact, but there certainly could be an ulterior motive for misleading everyone at the moment. If you asked them a year ago why Hodor was named Hodor, I doubt they would have said "Well it is actually this lavish set up to reveal how his character was created while also saving Bran's life. That's probably all we can tell you at the moment though".
PatAg
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the white walkers aren't a feuding nation. They are the undead that want to destroy all the living. I can't decide if you are a really dedicated troll, or the weirdest person I have ever encountered on TexAgs.
PatAg
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Nope, he is a basterd.
That's actually no longer known. It's possible they married in secret.
smokeythebear
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quote:
quote:
Nope, he is a basterd.
That's actually no longer known. It's possible they married in secret.
"possible", yes, but that's like saying it is "possible" that Aeries is actually his father.
Agnzona
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Agree, I can't see the WW negotiating anything. What we expect them to just blurt out, "We want to exist"?
Al Bula
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quote:
quote:
Nope, he is a basterd.
That's actually no longer known. It's possible they married in secret.
and who is around to verify? Bran and his internet trees? Swamp thing Howland Reed? Some
Country ass septon who married them?

Who is above reproach that could convince people in westeros a black-haired northerner is anything more than a basterd?

Jon's only hope at legitimacy is Dany. Still a stretch. Unless she wants to bang and marry him, he is a potential threat to her throne seeing how he is before her in line of succession if legit.

I'm betting he is never legitimized.
smokeythebear
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Honestly, I don't think he's ever looking to be legitimized. Like Tyrion told him in Season 1, "you're a *******, wear it like armor and no one can ever use it to hurt you again!"
bangobango
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quote:
quote:
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Nope, he is a basterd.
That's actually no longer known. It's possible they married in secret.
"possible", yes, but that's like saying it is "possible" that Aeries is actually his father.
no, not really.
smokeythebear
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Point is, both are pretty unlikely.
bigbass1170
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Damnit I was wondering why there was so few posts on the season 6 thread.
Rudyjax
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Lost the watch list?
Agnzona
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HBO announced today Season 7 is 7 episodes starting in July. Scheduled pushed back to have more time shooting on cold gray looking days.
Brian Earl Spilner
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This ****ing blows.
Inspector Spacetime
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Fuuuuuuuckkkkkk
smokeythebear
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Fuuuuuuuckkkkkk
Agnzona
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12 months without boobs and beheadings. What's a guy to do?
El Hombre Mas Guapo
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Finish the GD book!!
Agnzona
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Finish the GD book!!

Are there pictures in the books?

Not a bad idea, since I haven't read any of them.
Zombie Jon Snow
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Offical now.

Season 7 is 7 episodes and delayed until SUMMER 2017.

ARRGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/07/18/game-thrones-season-7
gougler08
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Offical now.

Season 7 is 7 episodes and delayed until SUMMER 2017.

ARRGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/07/18/game-thrones-season-7


I'm assuming you just don't read the thread?
VanZandt92
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12 months without boobs and beheadings. What's a guy to do?


You mean flaying.
 
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