Who said he would? My original question was him working with the Umbers, not sending an army to Winterfell.

Fairly plausible

What does "working with" mean? If Ramsey knew that the Umbers were in cahoots with the Freys, then I imagine he would be quite suspect of the Umbers' intentions. What value would the Freys add to any secret plan?
Information? no.
Imagination? no.
Bargaining power? no.
Men? unlikely

Besides, if the Umbers were actually loyal to the Starks, they would STILL be more pissed at the Freys than they are at the Boltons.

Honestly, I think this is all much to do about nothing. Younger Jon Umber just took his chance to make a name for himself with the new Warden of the North. I'm going down on paper as thinking there is no "secret plan".

#pray4rickon

I don't think there's a secret plan either. I think it's all wishful thinking on our part.

No way are the Umbers and Freys in league with each other. The only friends in the north that the Frey's had were the Bolton's and that doesn't appear to be the case.

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What does "working with" mean? If Ramsey knew that the Umbers were in cahoots with the Freys, then I imagine he would be quite suspect of the Umbers' intentions. What value would the Freys add to any secret plan? Information? no.
Imagination? no.
Bargaining power? no.
Men? unlikely

Besides, if the Umbers were actually loyal to the Starks, they would STILL be more missed at the Freys than they are at the Boltons.

Honestly, I think this is all much to do about nothing. Younger Jon Umber just took his chance to make a name for himself with the new Warden of the North. I'm going down on paper as thinking there is no "secret plan".

#pray4rickon

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I think keeping the fact that they are "working with" the Umbers a secret from the Boltons would be part of the plan, so why would Ramsay know?

As far as what the Frey's could add, manpower is probably first and foremost. They have a to of them. Robb even mentioned that he needs their numbers after the Karstarks left him. They also still have an alliance with the Boltons for now. It seems like getting Umbers and Freys inside the walls in an attempt to backstab Ramsay is exactly the right thing to do.

The main point I'll concede to you is that if the Umbers are mad at the Boltons, they are likely also pissed at the Freys as well. They could arguably be more pissed at the Bolton's though. They are from the north and betrayed the Starks. The Freys aren't. The Boltons had even less reason to betray Robb than the Freys too. I think it's more likely that the Umbers are acting without the Freys (if at all).

To much thought on the Umbers. I think its just like he stated, letting the wildings in pushed his hand to join the Bolton's. That simple

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To much thought on the Umbers. I think its just like he stated, letting the wildings in pushed his hand to join the Bolton's. That simple

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Possibly, but why the need to sacrifice Rickon and what's-her-name? That seems like a very unnecessary move at the initial meeting w/ Bolton.

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I would say it would be wiser to hold Rickon for a later time when you may need a bargaining chip, but characters in GOT don't seem to think ahead very often.

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To much thought on the Umbers. I think its just like he stated, letting the wildings in pushed his hand to join the Bolton's. That simple

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Possibly, but why the need to sacrifice Rickon and what's-her-name? That seems like a very unnecessary move at the initial meeting w/ Bolton.

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I would say it would be wiser to hold Rickon for a later time when you may need a bargaining chip, but characters in GOT don't seem to think ahead very often.

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Probably just because the show runners don't want to spend 5 episodes with the back and forth between the two building up to the Umbers giving up Rickon to Ramsey.

"These wildlings are annoying, we want to join you!"

"But you were loyal to the Starks"

"Yea, that was my dad, I'm not my dad"

"How do I know you're not trying to trick me?"

"Here, I'll give you this Stark we were hiding to prove my loyalty, now come help us protect our land"

Better to do that in one conversation than spend 45 minutes over 5 episodes explaining it. The story isn't about the Umbers, the story is about Rickon being handed over to Ramsey.

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To much thought on the Umbers. I think its just like he stated, letting the wildings in pushed his hand to join the Bolton's. That simple

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Possibly, but why the need to sacrifice Rickon and what's-her-name? That seems like a very unnecessary move at the initial meeting w/ Bolton.

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I would say it would be wiser to hold Rickon for a later time when you may need a bargaining chip, but characters in GOT don't seem to think ahead very often.

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Probably just because the show runners don't want to spend 5 episodes with the back and forth between the two building up to the Umbers giving up Rickon to Ramsey.

"These wildlings are annoying, we want to join you!"

"But you were loyal to the Starks"

"Yea, that was my dad, I'm not my dad"

"How do I know you're not trying to trick me?"

"Here, I'll give you this Stark we were hiding to prove my loyalty, now come help us protect our land"

Better to do that in one conversation than spend 45 minutes over 5 episodes explaining it. The story isn't about the Umbers, the story is about Rickon being handed over to Ramsey.

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Dany has been wandering around for 5+ seasons, but NOW they don't want to waste time? I don't buy it

See also: Dorne.

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Dany has been wandering around for 5+ seasons, but NOW they don't want to waste time? I don't buy it

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Dany has been wandering around for 5+ seasons, but NOW they don't want to waste time? I don't buy it

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Rewatched the episode tonight (had to turn off the Stars game tonight). My only new comment is that I have to give Olly props for not being a *****. He stood up there and took his lumps like a man fueled by his rage.

Ollie Ollie oxen free...

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Interesting theory I've heard on a podcast --

The faceless men know/will learn of Jon's resurrection and be pissed that a death was taken from the Many-Faced God, tipping the scales by giving back a life that may not have been meant to be given back.

So they send Arya to Westeros on one of her first assignments to take back Jon's life and prove that she is truly "no one" and still not a Stark.

That's the type of conflict I totally could see developing this season

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Don't those priests bring back people fairly regularly? I forget what they are called, but one of them got killed many times (once by the hound) and kept ressurecting.

It doesn't happen with any regularity, from what we know. Mel was super surprised that other priest could raise his friend, and told Davos it should have been impossible.

However, the faceless men haven't gone after Beric (the one brought back by the priest).

Beric Dondarrion was the guy they kept bringing back. Many Faced God and Red God are different. Many-Faced God is simply a God of death and is represented in all the faiths. The Stranger in the Faith of the Seven and the weirwood Face for the Old Gods. They simply worship the form of Death in all religions which is why its called the many Many-Faced God. Even though they've shown they can bring people back, I think it is a very rare thing.

In that scenario wouldn't you go after the priest who brought the person back, not the person who was resurrected? The priest is the one cheating death.

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In that scenario wouldn't you go after the priest who brought the person back, not the person who was resurrected? The priest is the one cheating death.

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The priestess being Melisandra, who told Arya way back in Season 3 that they would meet again. I didn't like this theory until you directed it at Melisandra instead of Jon. I absolutely cannot imagine GRRM sending Arya to kill Jon, but I CAN imagine Arya going to kill Melisandra (as I hypothesized a page back).

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Classic Ozzie references in there... takes me back, haha.

"yeah, naw, mate"

"naw, yeah, mate"

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Dany has been wandering around for 5+ seasons, but NOW they don't want to waste time? I don't buy it

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You don't buy that Dany is a more important character with character development than Little John Umber?

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I wonder why young Ned was only using one hand on his sword during that fight? Surely he would have more control using both hands?

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I wonder why Eddard was not carrying his ancestral Valeryan steel Greatsword during the rebellion.


Remember that Tywin got TWO swords from the steel in Ned's weapon, one for Jaime and one for Joffrey.

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Probably because it's at King's Landing because his Father and Brother had it with them when they were burned by the Mad King.

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In that scenario wouldn't you go after the priest who brought the person back, not the person who was resurrected? The priest is the one cheating death.

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The priestess being Melisandra, who told Arya way back in Season 3 that they would meet again. I didn't like this theory until you directed it at Melisandra instead of Jon. I absolutely cannot imagine GRRM sending Arya to kill Jon, but I CAN imagine Arya going to kill Melisandra (as I hypothesized a page back).

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This. Arya will be sent to take out someone in Westeros - someone important. I think it could be Melisandre.

Yea, but we already covered that by the time that fight scene happened, Ned had already sacked Kings Landing and killed Raegar. If the sword was at Kings Landing, he would have had his chance to get it. More likely, he recovered it and sent it back to Winterfell for safe keeping with his brother Benjen. Then continued to fight with the same sword he's been fighting with all rebellion long.

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Dany has been wandering around for 5+ seasons, but NOW they don't want to waste time? I don't buy it

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You don't buy that Dany is a more important character with character development than Little John Umber?

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The argument that there is no development occuring over there at all

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In that scenario wouldn't you go after the priest who brought the person back, not the person who was resurrected? The priest is the one cheating death.

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The priestess being Melisandra, who told Arya way back in Season 3 that they would meet again. I didn't like this theory until you directed it at Melisandra instead of Jon. I absolutely cannot imagine GRRM sending Arya to kill Jon, but I CAN imagine Arya going to kill Melisandra (as I hypothesized a page back).

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This. Arya will be sent to take out someone in Westeros - someone important. I think it could be Melisandre.

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To parallel Arya's 3 deaths: they would send Arya to go ask Melisandra to name a death. Arya saved three lives, so she had to name them. Mel saved Jon's life, so should name a replacement.

I would love for this to happen and Mel choose one of the hated rivals and see Arya go full skill assassin.


-or- Sure, Jon came back, but he already repaid the mfg with 4 lives. So, maybe nothing to do.