The funny thing about that, to me, is that Jon is already a more natural leader of people, while Dany has been better at winning battles. If it is like you say and each are learning to be better at the other side of leading, AND if they end up on the same team...

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That was my original thought, too, but that's really Danaerys. Jon is learning how to be a warrior-leader v Dany becoming a political-leader.

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The funny thing about that, to me, is that Jon is already a more natural leader of people, while Dany has been better at winning battles. If it is like you say and each are learning to be better at the other side of leading, AND if they end up on the same team...

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I think it ends with a massive shot of Dany setting sail with her thousands of ships and dragons flying about. This would be a long breath-taking cut that is meant to be the huge moment at the end of the season.

Then the screen goes black for 10 seconds and then you hear some shuffling and a "Llyana?". You see young Ned walk into a small room and a dying Llyana holding a newborn baby saying "Ned, promise me!"

This gives you the big epic scene everyone wants to see but isn't a cliff-hanger with Dany and then gives you the HUGE reveal/cliff-hanger of the TOJ (since many casual show watchers would be surprised and confused why Llyana would have a baby in the tower).

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we know they have to reveal R+L=J this episode, but *how* will they tie it in to the greater narrative moving forward at this point after waiting so long? Is it enough to just reveal that Jon is half targaryen? I think not. How will that advance the story for the show only viewers? They need to either drop some info hinting that more targaryens are needed to ride the other dragons and/or have Bran be heavily involved in the reveal

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Revealing that Jon isn't a ******* to us and eventually to him...changes everything about him.

He joined the black specifically because he was a *******...now he would be royalty.

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Unless they got married, he's still a *******.

Re watching Battle of the *******s and one thing that bothers me is there are no knights in these battles.

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That was my original thought, too, but that's really Danaerys. Jon is learning how to be a warrior-leader v Dany becoming a political-leader.

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The funny thing about that, to me, is that Jon is already a more natural leader of people, while Dany has been better at winning battles. If it is like you say and each are learning to be better at the other side of leading, AND if they end up on the same team...

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I get what you are saying, but Jon has had to slog through a mountain of **** to get where he is today, whereas it feels like Dany wakes up and poops rainbows and elite level soldiers every morning in comparison.

I mean, if Jon had some dragons and immunity to fire at his disposal, I'm sure he would look a lot more competent at this point, too. Hell, I'd just like to see him with equal number of troops for once.

Not all of the Starks are good learners.

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That was my original thought, too, but that's really Danaerys. Jon is learning how to be a warrior-leader v Dany becoming a political-leader.

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The funny thing about that, to me, is that Jon is already a more natural leader of people, while Dany has been better at winning battles. If it is like you say and each are learning to be better at the other side of leading, AND if they end up on the same team...

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Exactly. If Jon and Dany are destined to be the Song of Ice and Fire, they are two sides of the same coin. They share a ton of characteristics - including being strong leaders.

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That was my original thought, too, but that's really Danaerys. Jon is learning how to be a warrior-leader v Dany becoming a political-leader.

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The funny thing about that, to me, is that Jon is already a more natural leader of people, while Dany has been better at winning battles. If it is like you say and each are learning to be better at the other side of leading, AND if they end up on the same team...

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I get what you are saying, but Jon has had to slog through a mountain of **** to get where he is today, whereas it feels like Dany wakes up and poops rainbows and elite level soldiers every morning in comparison.

I mean, if Jon had some dragons and immunity to fire at his disposal, I'm sure he would look a lot more competent at this point, too. Hell, I'd just like to see him with equal number of troops for once.

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Jon does have immunity to arrows, it appears.

Kidding aside, Jon has exquisite sword fighting skills and now a valyrian sword (trump card for WWs). Dany's dragon's are her ONLY real weapon and she survived a LONG time without them before she relied on them. Dany uses WAY more ingenuity than Jon does and she's had to outsmart a lot of people to stay on her feet. Remember, even after being Queen of Mereen, she was captured and treated like a slave by the Dothraki who constantly talked of raping and killing her. Not exactly rainbows.

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Re watching Battle of the *******s and one thing that bothers me is there are no knights in these battles.

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There were very few knights in the north as they worshipped the old gods. A knight swore his vow on the faith of the seven.

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Yea, and I think many of the knights were probably killed already by the two previous wars (Robert's and Robb's).

True, but she got through that due to magic. It's not like Jon is immune to fire.

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Dany's dragon's are her ONLY real weapon and she survived a LONG time without them before she relied on them.

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Umm, she may have survived before the dragons but not on her own and not always how she wanted; she's been relying on the dragons constantly since their birth. No dragons and she's forcibly retired to the dosh khaleen. No dragons and she doesn't get an audience at Qarth much less actually getting into the city. And most importantly, no dragons means no unsullied.

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Her beauty is also a weapon. She's had two highly skilled warriors fighting by her side because they were in love with her. She has also relied heavily on the fact that she is immune to fire. Both times she gained followers were because she survived a fire. Let's not act like Jon's a fool and she's not. Jon made a huge mistake trying to save his brother, which 99% of this board would've done if they were in his boots. On the other hand, Tyrion had to convince Dany not to burn everything to the ground. She's been an incompetent ruler (not conquerer) this whole time.

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yaddayaddayadda

Am I being nit picky? Is the consensus among book readers that all of this was going to come out in the wash in more or less the same way in the books? Or does anyone else think they have changed the nature of characters/events to not be true to the characters establish narratives in the books?



TLDR- I am a whiner and just wish I could've seen this play out on Martin's page before on D&D's screen. The show has none-the-less done an awesome job.

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I completely agree on all counts, and fully disclose my book penchant over the show. That being said, I'v had to come to terms that these are the same story told in different ways. i.e. the "left out" or "combined" story-lines in the show don't mean that the mirrored characters in the books hold any less importance, either to the overall plot or to the description of scenery/location/other characters.

I hate how they (they = show/D&DB) treated the Northern Conspiracy (to this point, could potentially be saved Sunday) almost as much as how they completely missed the point of Doran and Dorne, but I reconcile that with knowing GRRM will write it in a way that it will all make sense. Fill in the holes left by the show, if you will.

The show simply has too much focused on getting to the end game in less than 2 seasons to expound upon the individual threads that really make the books great/good, IMO. This includes their penchant for utilization of Occam's Razor in instances where it would be much more "GRRM-esque"" to deceive and twist conclusions, also something that makes the books great.

To borrow from Reddit, again; D&DB/GoT : Duplo :: GRRM/ASoIaF : Lego

Both stories will get you there, but the pieces aren't nearly as complicated, and there are less of them to manage.

I agree with you. The North Remembers was woefully underutilized. I am most disappointed in how Rickon and the Umbers played out.

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Disclaimer - I enjoy the show very much and look forward to it every week, but I am pretty sure I have a book bias.

Is it just me or is anyone else upset with the way the North has played out in the show vs the apparent direction it was going in the books? Let's start with Stannis's arrival at the Wall,

- Stannis up and decides to burn Shireen, which changes his character for me. His army gains no traction from Northern Clans, gets defeated easily by Ramsey to the point where it almost feels like an afterthought.
- Show marries Sansa to Ramsey (wtf!)
- The are a few mentions of "the North remembers" (which was a badass story line developing in the books) but actually nobody in the show North seems to remember jack ****.
- Ramsey kills his Dad. Roose is shown to be cunning and smart, but the show disposes him lightly. ( I suppose this likely was happening in the books I guess?)
- Umbers betray the Starks and handover Rickon
- No mention of Manderly or the Great Northern Conspiracy
- Jon's resurrection is taken very nonchalantly.
- Jon gets no respect from anyone in the North, seems like a brooding idiot, gets manipulated by Sansa and Ramsey, get's his but saved by luck and Littlefinger, seems overall lucky and a bit incompetent.

Am I being nit picky? Is the consensus among book readers that all of this was going to come out in the wash in more or less the same way in the books? Or does anyone else think they have changed the nature of characters/events to not be true to the characters establish narratives in the books?



TLDR- I am a whiner and just wish I could've seen this play out on Martin's page before on D&D's screen. The show has none-the-less done an awesome job.

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No, you are not alone. I agree with almost all of your points.

I've mentioned this before on the other thread (I think), but it kind of drives me crazy that the same episode where Dany gets to say "No, we're discussing the terms of your surrender" then hop on a giant dragon and start burning down ships, we see Jon get lured into a trap and completely destroyed in battle before being bailed out by Sansa and Littlefinger.

And while they did have the scene where he beats the hell out of Ramsey, I feel like that wasn't dramatic/heroic enough. I'd just like for once for them to show Jon in a similar light that they show Dany. Let him have a badass line and do something badass all on his own without getting bailed out by help somewhere else. He's long overdue a win like that, in my opinion.

I would've at least liked to see them show him do everything RIGHT at the Battle of the *******s, but then maybe that isn't enough and then Littlefinger comes and bails him out, similar to the Wall battle, I guess, but they can't even give him that win.

Hopefully, they'll do something in the next episode or early in the next season to hint at a "growing legend" of Jon Snow in the North. Show people in awe of him and pledging undying loyalty to him, like they do to Dany all the damn time.

I was also annoyed that they didn't have any more of the North join the cause. Seems it wouldn't have costs them anything to just have a few more Lords and/or Ladies in the background at the parlay with Ramsey. They wouldn't even have to go into who they were or anything like that, just show that they were able to rally more support than 63 men, because now it looks like the North is a bunch of self-serving a-holes that don't care who the ruling family is, where that is not how I perceive the Starks at all (and not how it's been portrayed in the shows or the books).

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Both stories will get you there, but the pieces aren't nearly as complicated, and there are less of them to manage.

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I agree with this line of thinking. The way I try to separate it in my head is that the books are like actual history textbooks of this world, with everything accounted for and true. The show is more like the legends that get passed down, where the actions of several get attributed to one "hero" and everything stays a little simpler. They both still end at the same place but one is for knowing how it all happened in detail and the other is for consuming the big points in entertaining fashion.

Add me to the list of books > show. I think for most book readers that is a given, but it really goes beyond that as some of you have mentioned. They have entirely changed the nature of characters, story arcs, etc. I've said several times that I don't necessarily see events from the show as "spoilers" for the books. They very well could be much different. For instance, the dynamic between Jon and Sansa in the show may not happen at all in the books (although it still could down the line potentially). The overall conclusion and the fates of major characters will likely be the same or similar, but I could see several characters dying in one medium and surviving in another. How you get to the conclusion matters and still influences my overall perception of the story even if they end similarly.

https://www.facebook.com/emiliaclarkecom/videos/1829900743912821/

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https://www.facebook.com/emiliaclarkecom/videos/1829900743912821/

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hahaha

It's not just that it is too many - and most of those have been recent so you do risk watchers saying "well anyone can come back" which cheapens any death.

The biggest problem is it has been 3 years.

GRRM brought her back in the epilogue of Book 3.

Now in the show it has been like 3 years with no hint, mention, rumor, etc.- so what we are supposed to believe she came back and has just been chillin in the Riverlands with the BwoB but not doing anything??? Cuz there have been no rumors of people being hung, no revenge on any Frey's or I think Walder might have mentioned it, yet he has been back but not a word about it.

If she came back now it is just a gimmick.

Jon came back within 2 episodes,
The Mountain, well Qyburn was treating him right away so you knew it was ongoing.
The Hound disappeared he never died onscreen, and was gone for 1.5 seasons.
Benjen was gone the longest for sure, but it was just an MIA thing, not a miracle.

The fact that GRRM dismissed LSH's return on the TV version carries weight with me. I can't help but think he's being truthful.

Interesting theory on Lightbringer

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Interesting theory on Lightbringer

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Also couple of other interesting theories there

1. Varys being the secret man behind the Sons of the Harpy - possible. Didn't make sense to me at first but he says maybe he was doing it to urge Dany to leave Essos for Westeros sooner that way. Kinda counterintuitive. It is kinds curious he arrives when she leaves and disappears before she arrives. But it still could be coincidence.

2. Sansa. I get that she has apparently changed - but he proposes the idea that maybe she has even changed so much she would turn the tables on LF and kill him for revenge and to claim the north herself. Thats a big big unrecoverable step. I get punishing Ramsay like that, but if she turns into a threat to LF and even Jon thats something new and surprising.

3. Lightbringer - yeah that would be cool - by killing Mel with it for burning shireen it turns into light bringer catching on fire as it pases through her. hmmmm.

4. did not realize wun Wun was supposedly the last of his kind. sad

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1. Varys being the secret man behind the Sons of the Harpy - possible. Didn't make sense to me at first but he says maybe he was doing it to urge Dany to leave Essos for Westeros sooner that way. Kinda counterintuitive. It is kinds curious he arrives when she leaves and disappears before she arrives. But it still could be coincidence.

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The problem with Varys being the leader is that they emerged well before he was anywhere near Mereen,,,that is some real long distance remote controlling.

One of the theories given how the Sons of the Harpy seem like super guerrilla fighters is that you need a military mind leading them..i.e. Daario. In the book there are a number of other alternatives...but they were never introduced in the show. Why Daario would do it is another matter.

Wow, that was a great read.

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1. https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/4pndkb/everything_jons_story_in_battle_of_the_*******s/ I love this context. Jon didn't charge in because he was reckless or angry. He charged in because he was beaten.

2. The North will Remember this Sunday. Everybody chill.

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In that "making of" clip about the last episode, I thought they said Jon charges in bc of rage over Rickon?

Maybe the Stark name has lost respect because they all pledged to Robb and that didn't go well.......and no one else has emerged as a good leader to rally the North - yet.