***Official GAME OF THRONES Season 6 (BOOK READERS/SPOILERS ALLOWED)***
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Last: 8 yr ago by hunter2012
Point of order.
Did the high sparrow ever claim himself to be a septon? Did he claim to have had formal training as a septon?
When the previous High septon was flogged he demanded this "high sparrow" killed. He didn't say Cardinal Ryan or brother Ted. The Faith knows all their septons, they don't just let laymen run the Sept in "dragonstone".
If someone outside of the faiths heirarchy calls him a septon it means very little to me. If catholism is all you've known for thousands of years and you have one word for spiritual leader: septon/priest; The moment you see a spiritual leader, you would likely attribute that title to him.
Did the high sparrow ever claim himself to be a septon? Did he claim to have had formal training as a septon?
When the previous High septon was flogged he demanded this "high sparrow" killed. He didn't say Cardinal Ryan or brother Ted. The Faith knows all their septons, they don't just let laymen run the Sept in "dragonstone".
If someone outside of the faiths heirarchy calls him a septon it means very little to me. If catholism is all you've known for thousands of years and you have one word for spiritual leader: septon/priest; The moment you see a spiritual leader, you would likely attribute that title to him.
quote:not really. plenty of other bloodlines were introduced in the targaryens over the years. the purr targaryen/valyrian blood isn't really a thing. i tried to make that point on another thread but it wasn't well received.
Viserys was 100% Targaryen.
it has more to do with a targaryen gene than pure blood through incest.
He claims to have been a wandering septon. Similar to the Septon Maribald or whoever that leads Brienne to the group of monks at the Quiet Isle.
Does he claim to be a wandering septon or he just travels helping the folks who need it?
quote:
I'm also led to believe that he sat in his hidey hole in a swamp for 17 years meeting nobody of consequence but when needed he's able to walk out of the swamp and take control of an entire religion that isn't even practiced where he lives? I guess he spent 17 years in his hidey hole studying the common folk. Or maybe he started practicing for his septon disguise for years getting to know the commoners in the south just in case he ever needed to do this...
As opposed to what we've been given: that a commoner who knows no one of consequence came out of nowhere to take control of an entire religion.
Or do you believe that the HS is still someone in disguise that had a plan for this all along.
It is funny when people say the HS is a commoner.
He can tell the histories of religious furniture that sounds like a noble upbringing. Maybe that's just me.
He can tell the histories of religious furniture that sounds like a noble upbringing. Maybe that's just me.
quote:I agree. It strikes me that he is a trained septon, and younger sons of the nobility often find themselves as members of the Night's Watch, as maesters and as septons. Just like our own middle ages.
It is funny when people say the HS is a commoner.
He can tell the histories of religious furniture that sounds like a noble upbringing. Maybe that's just me.
He only went into "begging brother" mode as a result of the depredations of the War of the Five Kings. Maybe his sept was burned. Who knows?
I just meant he survived the fight, therefore probably pretty good.
Alt Shift X Video on Jon Snow coming back
Pretty good summation of the evidence from both the book and show that Jon is coming back. He goes a bit off the deep end at the conclusion, but overall pretty compelling evidence.
Pretty good summation of the evidence from both the book and show that Jon is coming back. He goes a bit off the deep end at the conclusion, but overall pretty compelling evidence.
Interesting theory about Tyrion being a Targaryen.
Jon, Tyrion, and Dany as dragon riders would be baller as *****.
Jon, Tyrion, and Dany as dragon riders would be baller as *****.
quote:
Interesting theory about Tyrion being a Targaryen.
Jon, Tyrion, and Dany as dragon riders would be baller as *****.
The targaryen sigil is three dragons, dany has three dragons, the original conquerors of westeros were three Targaryens on three dragons. Time is a flat circle....
quote:Don't post this comment on the True Detective thread. Schmendeler will have a cow.
The targaryen sigil is three dragons, dany has three dragons, the original conquerors of westeros were three Targaryens on three dragons. Time is a flat circle....
I thought everyone thought Tyrion was a targaryen.
He has two different colored eyes.
He was obsessed with dragons and fire as a kid
His dad hates him and the Mad King
The mad King visited Casterly Rock, and was a known rapist.
Mom died at childbirth, just like daenerys.
He has two different colored eyes.
He was obsessed with dragons and fire as a kid
His dad hates him and the Mad King
The mad King visited Casterly Rock, and was a known rapist.
Mom died at childbirth, just like daenerys.
And John Snow. All three killed their mothers at birth.
quote:
I thought everyone thought Tyrion was a targaryen.
He has two different colored eyes.
He was obsessed with dragons and fire as a kid
His dad hates him and the Mad King
The mad King visited Casterly Rock, and was a known rapist.
Mom died at childbirth, just like daenerys.
There is literally no evidence in the book that this rape ever occurred. The only thing people can point to is that the Mad King telling Tywin at his wedding that he was sad that prima nocte is no longer a thing, however that was years before Tyrion was conceived. It's a significant stretch. Also, his eyes are described as green and black. Neither is the standard Targaryen purple (although some will claim that they are so purple they appear black).
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(Im gonna put pycelle rumors in parenthesis) "and barristan rumors in quotations", the pycelle rumors he denies but if you member when tyrion tortured him EVERYTHING I DO IS FOR LANNISTER!
So. Follow this for a moment. Tywin grew up obsessed with family and power. His father, ineffectual. When he was in his youth he befriends Prince Aerys and is awarded his knighthood alongside Aerys, who's family is power. (Sometime during this youth Aerys takes Joanna's maidenhead while she is a maiden to the targ princess, she becomes his paramour, lover).
Ser Tywin then sets the Westerlands afire in his early adulthood, destroying House Reyne. Consolidating his power and strengthen his line, he goes after his cousin, Aerys' lover. Aerys having everything he wants, is insulted. Aerys jokes about taking her one final time at Tywin's wedding. Tywin has the moment like Walter White: I won. She pops out the two most beautiful children in all the land.
Aerys is coronated, names Tywin Hand. Tywin basically rules the kingdom as Hand and snide remarks/jeers are made toward Aerys. Whether Joanna was in KL is unclear but Im sure Tywin kept her close or brought her there occasionally; Tywin genuinely loved her his wedding was the only time he ever smiled. We know that Tyrion is at least like 8 years younger than the twins maybe more, Cercei had to be old enough to understand death and resentment to pinch his cock.
"Aerys lusted for Joanna on the throne" Lets assume Aerys impregnated her. Tyrion claws his way out of his mother, as Cercei says. This would be the third childbirth death we observe including Dany and Jon. Tywin either knows or suspects it, he is cuckolded by his, now, rival.
As Tyrion grows, Tywin does everything he can to dishonor Tyrion. The fake marriage, the silver stags. Why would you do that to your child? To dishonor him; remember family-first! Then Tyrion becomes a lecherous fornicator, Tywin sees Aerys in Tyrion. Aerys had many one-nighters, its good to be the king. This lechery is brought up dozens of times, dont bring that ***** to KL, you had her in my bed. etc etc.
As far as we know Tywin only had one lover. However, with Tyrion facing the executioner/exile and/or Jaime being reinstated as an heir, Tywin has gotten everything he wanted.....Except Joanna. Aerys' killed her. The only way to get the last laugh is to bed Aerys' son's beloved. Then the lion is finally supreme.
Tywin and Shae doesnt make sense otherwise. And so few of his actions toward Tyrion ever make sense. Why complain about a son spreading his seed? A lion doesnt concern himself with the opinions of lesser animals. He would NEVER let Tyrion sit at Casterly rock. WHY?!?! If its his son...
...but he isnt! Tywin knows Tyrion is a targaryen.
So. Follow this for a moment. Tywin grew up obsessed with family and power. His father, ineffectual. When he was in his youth he befriends Prince Aerys and is awarded his knighthood alongside Aerys, who's family is power. (Sometime during this youth Aerys takes Joanna's maidenhead while she is a maiden to the targ princess, she becomes his paramour, lover).
Ser Tywin then sets the Westerlands afire in his early adulthood, destroying House Reyne. Consolidating his power and strengthen his line, he goes after his cousin, Aerys' lover. Aerys having everything he wants, is insulted. Aerys jokes about taking her one final time at Tywin's wedding. Tywin has the moment like Walter White: I won. She pops out the two most beautiful children in all the land.
Aerys is coronated, names Tywin Hand. Tywin basically rules the kingdom as Hand and snide remarks/jeers are made toward Aerys. Whether Joanna was in KL is unclear but Im sure Tywin kept her close or brought her there occasionally; Tywin genuinely loved her his wedding was the only time he ever smiled. We know that Tyrion is at least like 8 years younger than the twins maybe more, Cercei had to be old enough to understand death and resentment to pinch his cock.
"Aerys lusted for Joanna on the throne" Lets assume Aerys impregnated her. Tyrion claws his way out of his mother, as Cercei says. This would be the third childbirth death we observe including Dany and Jon. Tywin either knows or suspects it, he is cuckolded by his, now, rival.
As Tyrion grows, Tywin does everything he can to dishonor Tyrion. The fake marriage, the silver stags. Why would you do that to your child? To dishonor him; remember family-first! Then Tyrion becomes a lecherous fornicator, Tywin sees Aerys in Tyrion. Aerys had many one-nighters, its good to be the king. This lechery is brought up dozens of times, dont bring that ***** to KL, you had her in my bed. etc etc.
As far as we know Tywin only had one lover. However, with Tyrion facing the executioner/exile and/or Jaime being reinstated as an heir, Tywin has gotten everything he wanted.....Except Joanna. Aerys' killed her. The only way to get the last laugh is to bed Aerys' son's beloved. Then the lion is finally supreme.
Tywin and Shae doesnt make sense otherwise. And so few of his actions toward Tyrion ever make sense. Why complain about a son spreading his seed? A lion doesnt concern himself with the opinions of lesser animals. He would NEVER let Tyrion sit at Casterly rock. WHY?!?! If its his son...
...but he isnt! Tywin knows Tyrion is a targaryen.
^
... then in the same conversation about Tyrion's lawful right to inherit Casterly Rock, there is this:
quote:
"Jugglers and singers require applause... you are a Lannister" (in name only?)
... then in the same conversation about Tyrion's lawful right to inherit Casterly Rock, there is this:
quote:
Tywin: "And I would let myself be consumed by maggots before mocking the family name and making your heir to Casterly Rock"
Tyrion: "...why...?"
Tywin: "WHY?! YOU ASK THAT? You, who killed you mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made spiteful little creature, full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. And to teach me humility the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men will ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your *****house.. Go. Now. ... Speak no more of 'your rights' to Casterly Rock. ... Go."
Great post.
One could also make a foreshadowing when maester aemon says it's not good when a targaryen is alone on the world then BOOM Tyrion gains her trust and is next to her.
AND Jon gets stabbed. A targaryen alone in the world is a bad thing indeed.
AND Jon gets stabbed. A targaryen alone in the world is a bad thing indeed.
Biggest hole in that interesting theory: if Tywin suspected Tyrion was a Targ, even just a little bit, he would've killed him out right.
quote:Ding ding ding. Guess we will have to wait to find out.
Biggest hole in that interesting theory: if Tywin suspected Tyrion was a Targ, even just a little bit, he would've killed him out right.
Are we going to use book evidence or show evidence to support theories? It can't be both, imo.
He couldn't prove Tyrion wasn't his, so to kill him and be wrong would make him a kinslayer. Kinslaying is just about the worst thing in the world in ASOIAF.
Barristen to Dany in ADWD:
Also this I found in the Citadel on this topic:
Barristen to Dany in ADWD:
quote:
"Prince Aerys . . . as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord's right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the . . . the liberties your father took during the bedding."
Also this I found in the Citadel on this topic:
quote:
to commemorate the tenth anniversary of Aerys's rule, in the year 272 AC, there was a great tourney where Tywin brought Joanna and their twins the present before the royal court. The king humiliated Joanna with some rude comments about her body. The next day Tywin attempted to resign as hand of the king but the king refused him. A few months later Tyrion was born. That is all on page 117 Of a world of ice and fire the untold history of westros and the game of thrones. Also throughout the book it is constantly talking about targayans having children of all sorts of deformities, basically all dying right after birth and most killing the mother.
quote:Honestly we are getting to a point where the show is going to show stuff before the books (and has). I think you absolutely can combine the two
Are we going to use book evidence or show evidence to support theories? It can't be both, imo.
quote:quote:Honestly we are getting to a point where the show is going to show stuff before the books (and has). I think you absolutely can combine the two
Are we going to use book evidence or show evidence to support theories? It can't be both, imo.
Consider the Tyrion theory. There is zero evidence in the show that can be used to support it. The book support is already weak as hell.
quote:Actually this isn't true imo because the Show writers know the arcs of the main characters, including Tyrion. They are writing the Show to simplify the plot and make it more understandable to the "Show only" people why things are happening and thus they are spoiling the books to an extent.
Are we going to use book evidence or show evidence to support theories? It can't be both, imo.
If you didn't take the Show into account for instance you could theorize that Robb's wife is pregnant or had his heir who will be the real key to the North. The Show has spoiled the books and will continue to do so.
I also don't think the fact that Tywin didn't kill Tyrion is weak evidence. Tywin is first and foremost proud and protective of his family name. It wasn't possible for him to kill Tyrion under that theory while Aerys was alive because of the consequences of doing so to Aerys. He did try to find situations where Tyrion would be killed but didn't outright plot his death afterward. Tyrion was also loved and protected by his brother and it seems as though he lived in KL while Tywin was at Casterly Rock for most of the post Aerys time period. He likely just didn't see Tyrion as a threat, just more of an embarrassment until point where the books pick up.
quote:
And John Snow. All three killed their mothers at birth.
quote:And then...
^
quote:
"Jugglers and singers require applause... you are a Lannister" (in name only?)
... then in the same conversation about Tyrion's lawful right to inherit Casterly Rock, there is this:
quote:
Tywin: "And I would let myself be consumed by maggots before mocking the family name and making your heir to Casterly Rock"
Tyrion: "...why...?"
Tywin: "WHY?! YOU ASK THAT? You, who killed you mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made spiteful little creature, full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. And to teach me humility the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men will ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your *****house.. Go. Now. ... Speak no more of 'your rights' to Casterly Rock. ... Go."
(THUNG)
Tywin: YOU'RE NO SON OF MINE...
Tyrion: I am your son. I have always been your son.
(THUNG)
quote:
Biggest hole in that interesting theory: if Tywin suspected Tyrion was a Targ, even just a little bit, he would've killed him out right.
Rofl. He admitted he wanted to throw him off the highest peak of Casterly Rock the moment he was born. "But i didn't because you are a lannister".
Infanticide aside, children are commodities to houses. Cercei has already hand delivered the iron throne to the lannister household, yet he is already planning to marry her to the tyrells. 3 legal children are better than 2; if Tywin remarried after joanna his future kids would likely be heirs or split the house with jaime.
When jaime approached Tywin at the trial with the proposition of leaving the king's guard, the table rose 6 inches. (To borrow the phrase)
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aerys_II_Targaryen
Aerys was very rational and prudent. But after joannas death the cracks in his sanity start showing. Joannas death was also the final nail in the coffin of Tywin/aerys' friendship.
Aerys was very rational and prudent. But after joannas death the cracks in his sanity start showing. Joannas death was also the final nail in the coffin of Tywin/aerys' friendship.
ROLF (see how annoying that is?) By that logic, Walder Frey would be the rule, not the exception. Most of the major families have 2-3 kids. The Starks are on the high end.
There is zero chance Tywin would let a ba$tard drawf live. Especially after it killed his beloved wife. But a drawf Lanister. He'd keep him, even as he hated him.
There is zero chance Tywin would let a ba$tard drawf live. Especially after it killed his beloved wife. But a drawf Lanister. He'd keep him, even as he hated him.
The freys try to marry all of em off. The problem with having 12 wives and tons of mistresses is the line of succession of the house. Oh and they are fairly poor. Their only value is the strategic keep, but under the targaryen rule the twins were always open.
Do you deny the weight of a Tyrion/sansa marriage for the lannister house?
Do you deny the weight of a Tyrion/sansa marriage for the lannister house?
I have no idea what you're trying to ask me. Please rephrase.
And I will laugh at your logic when it was plainly established that tywins admitted first instinct was to kill tyrion. That was what he wanted to do, but he chose not to.
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