For my money, I'll go with Mitchum in The Night of the Hunter.

Ledger was great, but if you ask my kids, he's got nothing on the sun in Frosty the Snowman

I think the observation the The Joker was static, so Ledger was limited in what he had to work with, is a valid observation.

Considering and factoring that in, I think his interpretation of the Joker was beyond brilliant. He transcended villian and entered archetype. In literature there is a character that is oftentimes referred to as the "Trickster." This character is not good or evil but only conserned about their own agenda and amusement. Sometimes they act in moral ways and then turn around and burn an entire town to the ground, if it amuses them or "makes their day."

I think Ledger's Joker did this. He didn't care about ordinary villian things, but had his own demented, inconsistent, unpredictable, and bizarre plans.

In this, Ledger was absolutely astounding.

The image of him walking away from the hospital and blowing it up while wearing a nurses uniform is both disturbing, funny, and disorienting all at the same time.

He was good.

^Pretty much. That was the whole point of the character. No story arc or background needed. It was Batman and Dent versus the mob. Joker was an variable thrown in as a representation of chaos. There is no rhyme or reason to the actual character and Ledger portrayed it perfectly as stated above.

Let's not forget that Man left their campfire unattended... this led to the destruction of thousands of acres of prestine forest.

I understand what you are saying about the Joker but I think that he's static is kind of the point.

The Joker is an interesting character because he is static and chaotic at the same time. He represents the true battle for Batman. The fight against the neverending criminal masses. In the end, it's a fight he knows he can't win but he labors on.

My only point had little to do with Ledger (who I thought was great, but still not as good as Mitchum). I just disagree that Nicholson had a better written role. I thought the script for TDK got the character much better than the first movie.

Joker >>>> Anton Chigurh

Joker was crazier.

Jack's Joker > Ledger's Joker

Movies are darker now than they were when the original Batman was released. Ledger is getting too much undue credit for revolutionizing a role which was simply written differently to reflect the cinema landscape at the time.

And further...

Keaton's Batman >>>>>>>>>>> Bale's Batman

God I wish Batman was mute so Bale wouldn't talk.

^By that logic, are you saying everyone who's received recognition over the past 5-10 years should be penalized because their movies weren't lighthearted enough? I don't really get what you're saying.

How do you explain Johnny Depp getting a nom for Pirates or the pub (critically and commercially) that musicals have been getting? Surely they aren't a reflection of the dark cinema landscape right now?

Where's the butcher from Gangs of New York. That guy is worthy of mention.

BTW, that AFI list is freaking hilarious if you view the chart as potential matchups.

Han Solo vs. The Alien
Darth Vader vs. James Bond
Spartacus vs. The Terminator
Batman vs. Hans Gruber (this one WORKS!)

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Hopkins portrayal as Dr. Lector will always be #1 IMO. Ledger's Joker is a close 2nd, followed by Bardem as Chigurh, Anthony Perkins as Norman Bates, and Kathy Bates as Annie Wilkes.

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regardless of the order in which they're listed, that's a pretty solid group. i might try to squeeze the butcher in there somewhere, but it just goes to show how tough it is to put together a top five.

[This message has been edited by Gramercy Riffs (edited 12/11/2008 12:38p).]

Nurse Ratched is the greatest villain to ever touch the screen. I won't listen to any other argument. That is all.

I'm gonna go with Shooter McGavin.

Can't believe no one has mentioned Kevin Spacey as John Doe in Se7en

The way he justifies his killings and the end is just perfect for a psychological villain. He pretty much wins.

He is in second place to me behind Hannibal, got goosebumps everytime they showed him

how about walter peck

just finished rewatching TDK. still a great ride the second time around.

heath=amazing!

Go Pokes!

He wasn't even the best villain in TDK.

HYPE.

+1 ledger

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Jack's Joker > Ledger's Joker

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The only people who ever say this have never read any of the comics. Jack's Joker was a complete misrepresentation of the Joker and had nearly zero similarities with the Joker from the comics. Ledger's Joker on the other hand was the comic Joker brought to the big screen, he encapsulated the Joker's psychotic, homocidal and just outright insane personality. The Joker from the comics is a very dark character who would commit genocide without a second thought.

The Joker was never meant to really have a sense of humor (i.e. do things that would make us laugh) that normal people would understand. Almost everything he does is only hilarious to himself while it just makes us cringe.

Jack's Joker was just your run of the mill movie kingpin type villain with a little twist, he completely missed the mark on the Joker.

Did everyone forget about the evil brewmeister in strange brew?

Jack's Joker was a completely accurate depiction of the Joker as he was portrayed in earlier comics. Ledger's joker is a portrayal of 80s, 90s, and current.

In 1989, big movie studios weren't willing to make a dark comic book movie, thus batman got the more lighthearted treatment visible in the movie and later the animated series. The movie landscape was just different then. Do any of you really believe that No Country for Old Men could have been made in 1989? Ledger did a great job, I'm not disputing that, but his character was written much better than Jack's joker to fit today's tastes. I think Jack would've still have killed the role had his Joker been a darker character.

+1 evil brewery guy in Strange Brew. Come to the dark side of the force, you knob.

How about Kevin Spacey's character in Seven? While we never really see him until the end, he is terrifying.

Right on about Spacey. I kinda thought his character and Ledgers were similar in that murdered only because they enjoyed the ensuing chaos. Both really didn't care about their own mortality either.

i think while Spacey's character was incredibly portrayed and could have been one of the top 5 ever, he was introduced so late into the movie that we never were fully able to connect with the character

Yes but when he is introduced and sitting in the back seat of the police car with a look of no remorse and apathy, I think there is a lot to learn about him, especially then later climax

I think the use of him so late was great, since throughout the movie you couldn't give the villain a face, and had to put together your own assumptions was a different taste that I enjoyed

Jack's Joker wasn't like any version of the character. The character has always been absolutely insane and Jack's Joker was much more of a mob boss type character with quirks than an insane criminal.

As for the movie studios not wanting to produce a dark movie in 1989, well I don't believe that at all. The Silence of the Lambs came out in 1991, The Terminator came out in 1984, Platoon came out in 1986, The Shining (1980), The Thing (1982), Full Metal Jacket (1987), and Escape from New York (1981) were all just as dark as the Dark Knight and dealt with very mature themes. You're just making excuses for the studios screwing up with the Joker on the 1st try because it's pretty obvious that the studios were definitely willing to make dark movies during the 80s.

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In 1989, big movie studios weren't willing to make a dark comic book movie

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His Joker comes into the story already his menacing self and undergoes no change throughout the action. There's no character arc and nothing for him to work with.

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The beauty of the Joker character (throughout the entire Batman mythos, not just TDK) is his simplicity. Every other supervillians fall prey to some freak accident that scars them and gives them superpowers to exact revenge. Nearly every supervillian fits that to a tee. But the Joker is different. The Joker is the personification of primal forces of insanity and evil. No explanation is offered, because none is needed. This is why Burton's Napier backstory was such a travesty: Burton twisted the Joker character into some common thug seeking his own self aggrandizement. TDK's Joker wasn't about self promotion; in fact he would willingly die to promote his cause: anarchy and making "a better class of criminal". The Joker and the forces which he represent are consistently the same throughout. Having them change ruins the entire concept.

Also, character arc is reserved for sympathetic characters. The audience relates to characters who start bad and become good or vice versa. Due to the very tragic nature of TDK, the dynamic characters were Bruce Wayne and Harvey Dent. The Joker was never intended to be a dynamic character, as he shouldn't be. The only times he seemingly changes and starts becoming sympathetic is in an attempt to fool others thus reinforcing his evil tendencies "I just want my phone call".

By the way, I agree with others who have said that Ledger didn't play the Joker; he became the Joker.

John Doe from Se7en is one of the best ever.
Jack Torrance should be up there as well.
McDonalds in SuperSizeMe.
Lumberg
Ed Rooney
Keyser Sose
Hannibal

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Jack's Joker was a completely accurate depiction of the Joker as he was portrayed in earlier comics. Ledger's joker is a portrayal of 80s, 90s, and current.

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That's not entirely accurate. Yes, the Joker went through a long range of time where he was made into slightly more of a buffoon, but in the very first Joker stories he was a cold blooded killer.

Also, don't forget DeNiro in Cape Fear.

Hopper in Blue Velvet