infinity ag said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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Would recommend staying as far away from healthcare as possible unless it is their passion and they don't care about being in perpetual debt and the risk of getting sued every 2 seconds.

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I never understood this.
If you are a doc with a good specialization, you make good money. If you don't waste money, then why can't you get out of debt in a few years?

What is the average debt for a doc like? Can't they live within their means?

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The issue is threefold.

1) If you're an MD being a family practitioner is no longer an option. That is what NP's are used for now. You are basically forced to specialize after you graduate which not all docs are suited for. So some would be better going the NP route.

2) Residencies have become total DEI cluster****s so good luck matching if ur a straight white male.

3) the amount of debt as Kiddoc pointed out after getting UR MD is about 250k. That's the average. There are some that graduate with nothing either through scholarships (mostly DEI driven so once again good luck to straight white males and asians) or military service but that drives down the average. The MEAN which is the experience of most MD's is more like 350k....basically a home mortgage ur saddled with at graduation.

The first several years in residency u make 70k-80 ish and are working 70 hrs per week at slave wages at the hospital due to our ****ed up MD training system. (They may have capped the hours at 60 with recent legislation...I haven't kept track of that lately)...but 60 hours is still 60 hours.

So MD's on average aren't making good money until they are 30ish.

Once ur an attending or have ur board certification ur making good money low-mid 6 figs on average.

If ur a surgeon ur malpractice insurance is going to be through the roof and you will get sued at some point...pretty much guaranteed.

UR Med School loans are not going to be paid off until ur 35ish because that interest is a ***** to knock down when ur a resident and ur basically only making minimum payments.

So as an MD you are investing minimum 10-12 years post highschool graduation, hoping that you make it through your education, that the match system for residency doesn't **** you over, that you maintain your sanity during residency and pass your specialty boards and that you don't injure your hands or your eyes during your 12 years of post graduate schooling, or that some other family or personal related life crisis does not derail your education and training before you start making good money for 1 year.

That is 12 years of potential pitfalls that can completely derail your life if something happens wrong- and there is ALOT that can go wrong during that time. Just before you start to see a return on your investment.

If something does go wrong then ur saddled with the debt and no high level income to pay it off.

It's a 12 year gamble...not to mention that quality of life for docs has steadily dropped over the years with increased patient load ohhhh and you are pretty much guaranteed to get sued unless u go into pediatrics or dermatology. And if ur a straight white male you need to be Jesus to get into either of those residencies nowadays.

Why would someone in their right mind take that kind of gamble?

Alot of the docs recommending the med school route went through the process before it got turned on its head right around 2010 ish so they don't have a frame of reference for just how whacky the system has become. Add to that the debt and it just does not make economic sense to go that route.

Thanks for the compliment on my posts.

I don't like to toss around things like that as a means of giving my posts authority. I don't believe that test scores, IQ, or academic accolades should give anyone's views more weight than anyone else's and it certainly doesn't make me smart. There are plenty of people either smarter than me or who just plain know more than me.

I know plenty of people that have all that and couldn't hold a candle to my "less educated" friends in the intelligence department.

Some of my dumbest friends are docs

SchizoAg said:

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Petroleum engineering or nuclear engineering. Energy is the foundation of all industry. That isn't changing any time soon.

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I was considering nuclear pretty hard before going to A&M. My mom gave me some great advice: If nuclear is a passion, go for it. But there are tons of ways to make a career in the nuclear industry with an EE degree and you're not limited if it doesn't work out.

That has been some of the best advice I could have received at that time and I think it's true for Petroleum, too. I think the big 4 (Electrical, Mechanical, Chemical, Civil/Structural) have greater lateral mobility and there are just as many opportunities for them in Nuclear, O&G, and other energy-related fields.

Do you like dealing with people's ***** Because that's what plumbers do. It's literally ****ty work.

Climbing in attics in the summer to work on A/C systems is pretty taxing labor, but it can be a good wage. There are plenty of trade jobs for a reason. Very few people want to do the labor involved.

My kids are looking at careers as they graduate HS now and it's still easily more lucrative to go to a good college and get a good degree. There are plenty of outliers but the averages are still there for college being a good successful life.

Welder
Hvac
Plumbing
Electrical

El Chupacabra said:

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...
If I could map it out for 1998 me, I would do the following:
Join the Air Force, do my 6 years.
Max the GI Bill as much as possible.
Get an EE degree. 28-29 years old, and with half a brain, debt free w/a great degree and 6 years military service.
Put my degree and experience to work...figure out what route in the world of electricity or batteries or whatever I want to go...plan to have my own business by about 35-37. Bust my ass for 10-15 years, leave it in capable hands, profit.

Lots of variables obviously...like war and marriage and babies...but seems like a decent route.

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Same for me but 1986. Try to stay maximum 30 but atleast 20.
Get Security+, it helps. Network Infrastructure, we connect the computer to the data switches and configure them. Also a PMP or Project+.

Edited to add this. USAF Avionics. Work for Musk.

62strat said:

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TriAg2010 said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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My SAT was 1560/1600

And I 100% would have been better off going the tradeschool track and would have preferred it.

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professionals out-earn trades over their lifetime. The rebuttal to this about "so and so owns this company and makes $Y hundred thousand dollars" are plainly outliers

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Another rebuttal could be that a trade not only pays a fraction of what a 4 year degree costs, but also starts making money earlier, which both could be invested so that's a big double dip in the plus column for a trade.

How much is $100k of tuition worth after about 40 years in the stock market? Because that's a very real decision a high school grad could make.

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A high school grad has $100k to invest? Not unless they have a trust fund. I'm not sure how many parents would be thrilled about hearing that their kid isn't going to college and I'm certain there's even less that would hand over $100k for their kid's brokerage account.

You don't just go into MEP trades and start banking money. You're a journeyman and work your way up like everyone else. Even though they're making money right away (whereas a college student isn't) it's not like they're flush with money right away.

ETA: the comments about taking $100k and investing it is confusing to me because no one is doing that at 18 years old. And starting your own business "after a few years" sounds great but you need financing or investors and most lenders are going to want to see a business plan, credit history, etc - things someone just graduating high school has no knowledge of. Lenders prob favor college grads as well.

Claude! said:

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BurnetAggie99 said:

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If didn't want to attend college and get a degree then I'd recommend being an Electric Utility Lineman working for electric utility. There are lineman making 150k - 200k a year with OT.

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Downside: if it snows, that stretch down south won't ever stand the strain.

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Life of a Wichita Lineman.

I knew an Ag that was manager of the Fish Pond at A&M. Retired early.

Three pages into this topic.

Maybe it is because this forum is A&M-centric, but most of these suggestions involve building and creating things and/or technical problem solving (including medical).

Conspicuously absent - classical studies and liberal arts

someone mentioned it earlier but joining the military is a great option, depending on the kid. I knew a bunch that joined, did the initial enlistment, got out and went on to be doctors, lawyers, etc. I will say this though, just joining the military isn't recommendable. You have to pick the right service and the right job. In the Navy, we had a saying "pick your rate, pick your fate". Bottom line - do your homework, take an aptitude test and network with professionals in the industry you are thinking about.

patman85 said:

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Knaack said:

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With all the talk of H-1B visas taking American jobs in Tech, I'd thought this would make a great discussion.

Say if you were a Senior in High School heading to Texas A&M next year, what degree/career would you head into in today's market?

Doctor? Software Engineer? Sales? Investment Banking?

No stuff like onlyfans or professional athlete.

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Maritime Transportation at TAMU College of Marine Science and Maritime Studies. Unlimited job opportunities as deck or engineer, travel the world and earn six figures to start at 22/23 years old. Do it right and retire at 45. Son is in his junior year and absolutely loves it.

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Go to the Merchant Marine Academy and get Uncle Sam to pay for your tuition.

Kool said:

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Wouldn't recommend becoming an M.D. unless it was your absolute passion since you were a kid or something like that AND your Mommy and Daddy are going to foot sever hundred thousands of dollars in tuition bills. I feel blessed and fortunate that Kool Jr. has no such aspirations.

Depending on the regulations of the state you want to live in, however, being an Anaesthesia Assistant, Anaesthesia PA, or Certified Registered Nurse Anaesthetist would be a great job to aim towards.

Hang out in the O.R. scrolling through your phone, occasionally looking up at some monitors and adjusting knobs while the M.D. takes on all of the risk. What's not to love for an 18-year-old?

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I woke up during surgery once and started talking to my care team. Guess there was too much phone scrolling going on.

Quote:

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Petroleum engineering or nuclear engineering. Energy is the foundation of all industry. That isn't changing any time soon.

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Electrical Engineer specifically in high voltage power systems. The source of power may change, but the distribution of it won't. Spend your summers as an apprentice for an electrician. Or if you can get in with a construction company cleaning switchgear and transformers.

ec2004 said:

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Contrary to what a couple on here have said, I have told my kids that getting an accounting degree, CPA license, Big 4 job, and then putting your head down and working hard is a great way to make a good career.

In some ways accounting is like a trade, it doesn't require a fancy name on the diploma. Plenty of millionaire Big 4 partners went to schools like Stephen F Austin or Middle Tennessee.

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I would like my sons to know their kids.

IF he / she wants to fly, working as an airline pilot is fantastic.

I'd recommend going to a college with an Aviation degree where you not only learn Aviation Mgmt. but also get all your flying qualifications thru Commercial.

Then they place you in a flying program to build your hours so you can join a Regional Carrier and then move to a Legacy Carrier around age 26.

Can fly up to 44 more years with that carrier. Life time earnings 10 million plus.

Quote:

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Petroleum engineering or nuclear engineering.

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i feel compelled to speak for my room temperature IQ brothers and sisters. 99.9% people cannot work in these fields. Me first among them. Not on my best day making all the right choices would this have been an avenue to me.

Commercial banking

Lineman for the county!

Rule #1

How is dentistry as a career nowadays?

BenTheGoodAg said:

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I was considering nuclear pretty hard before going to A&M. My mom gave me some great advice: If nuclear is a passion, go for it. But there are tons of ways to make a career in the nuclear industry with an EE degree and you're not limited if it doesn't work out.

That has been some of the best advice I could have received at that time and I think it's true for Petroleum, too. I think the big 4 (Electrical, Mechanical, Chemical, Civil/Structural) have greater lateral mobility and there are just as many opportunities for them in Nuclear, O&G, and other energy-related fields.

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Electrical Engineer specifically in high voltage power systems. The source of power may change, but the distribution of it won't. Spend your summers as an apprentice for an electrician. Or if you can get in with a construction company cleaning switchgear and transformers.

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Very good points.

Ragnar Danneskjoldd said:

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i feel compelled to speak for my room temperature IQ brothers and sisters. 99.9% people cannot work in these fields. Me first among them. Not on my best day making all the right choices would this have been an avenue to me.

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Also a very important point. These are some of the hardest majors. Definitely not for average Joes.

BenTheGoodAg said:

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SchizoAg said:

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Petroleum engineering or nuclear engineering. Energy is the foundation of all industry. That isn't changing any time soon.

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I was considering nuclear pretty hard before going to A&M. My mom gave me some great advice: If nuclear is a passion, go for it. But there are tons of ways to make a career in the nuclear industry with an EE degree and you're not limited if it doesn't work out.

That has been some of the best advice I could have received at that time and I think it's true for Petroleum, too. I think the big 4 (Electrical, Mechanical, Chemical, Civil/Structural) have greater lateral mobility and there are just as many opportunities for them in Nuclear, O&G, and other energy-related fields.

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I have 2 good Aggie friends who have made a lot of money in the oil and gas business. Neither one has a Pet Eng. degree. At least one has a Mechanical degree and I think they both do but the other one might be a Chemical degree.

samsal75 said:

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Marry a rich woman!!!

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My dad always told me that if I married for money I would earn every penny. Little did I know as a teenager that it doesn't matter what I did for a living, I had to earn every penny.

And marrying it would probably be easier work. But that I will never know.

Game show host

I got my degree in Construction Science. I learned more in my 6 month internship on the job than I did the other 3.5 years of school combined.

If they're wanting to go construction, there are ways around getting your degree and having a great career. A few of the older guys I worked with in my career never went to college and they're some of the most successful people I know.

College is just a hurdle that companies like to see if you can clear before hiring you.

Knaack said:

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With all the talk of H-1B visas taking American jobs in Tech, I'd thought this would make a great discussion.

Say if you were a Senior in High School heading to Texas A&M next year, what degree/career would you head into in today's market?

Doctor? Software Engineer? Sales? Investment Banking?

No stuff like onlyfans or professional athlete.

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In the area of technology whatever it is you do, you must do the following to stay valuable:

1- learn every day
2- become a 'builder'
3- don't limit yourself to a company mindset (do these things all day everywhere)


Use any and all tools to just build. Build things people want. Some examples of tools to get this done:

3D printers
Servers
Services
Cloud
IDEs
Generative AI
Agentic AI
Coding Skills
AI Tools like Cursor
Power tools
Basic tools
Woodworking
Metalworking
Machining


JUST BUILD because the world as we know it will be ripe for the taking if you know how to build.

We won't need project managers, product owners, coders, etc... we need BUILDERS who GSD.

QBCade said:

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infinity ag said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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My SAT was 1560/1600

And I 100% would have been better off going the tradeschool track and would have preferred it.

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Wow that is amazing. My son got 1560 a few years ago as well. He is at a Top 5 CS school now.

I can see that in your posts which I enjoy. Keep posting.

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If your son likes the work, have him keep at it. Encourage him to take some career risks early - startups, smaller, growing companies, etc. Get into a higher mgmt role, with stock, etc you can make life changing $$$

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Yes, he loves the work and he is preparing for an internship interview at a top west coast tech company for summer. My concern is he is also saying he will do a Masters at the same school he is at now as a backup. I told him a masters degree should never be a backup. I would like him to start working, do it for 1-2 years, do a Masters at a top West Coast school, then get a career bump. Or do an MBA and move into tech investing. I don't think doing actual tech work is good for the long term.

You are right, he should take risks at this early age.

62strat said:

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FIDO*98* said:

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Skip A&M and become a Plumber, Electrician, Welder, HVAC. Take the $100,000 for college and use it to start a business after a few years of experience

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My wife is a counselor at a high school CTE campus (and I'm in GC construction), and I am totally behind this pathway.

Their pathways include plumbing, electrical, HVAC, building controls technology, secure network technologies, advance robotics, architecture, aviation and a few others.

The electrical subcontractor that does most of the work for our projects at my job is the one that takes us to vegas, cabo, san diego on a private jet and spoils us every year for fun work trips.

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There's a caveat to this though. Construction is really easy to get into, but it's also real easy to get out of. What makes a good electrician or plumber doesn't necessarily make a good a good business owner. Anyone trying to go into the trades to start a business needs to learn the business along with the trade. For every one of those guys spoiling you, there's a dozen (and probably even more) others who set out on their own and failed because they didn't understand estimating, overhead, cash flow, resource management, BD, contracts, risk, etc. Pick the brains of the CFO/controller, PM's, estimators, etc to learn the office side of the business and how all of the money works or to get an associate's in business administration or something as well as learning all of the field stuff.

SW AG80 said:

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BenTheGoodAg said:

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SchizoAg said:

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Petroleum engineering or nuclear engineering. Energy is the foundation of all industry. That isn't changing any time soon.

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I was considering nuclear pretty hard before going to A&M. My mom gave me some great advice: If nuclear is a passion, go for it. But there are tons of ways to make a career in the nuclear industry with an EE degree and you're not limited if it doesn't work out.

That has been some of the best advice I could have received at that time and I think it's true for Petroleum, too. I think the big 4 (Electrical, Mechanical, Chemical, Civil/Structural) have greater lateral mobility and there are just as many opportunities for them in Nuclear, O&G, and other energy-related fields.

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I have 2 good Aggie friends who have made a lot of money in the oil and gas business. Neither one has a Pet Eng. degree. At least one has a Mechanical degree and I think they both do but the other one might be a Chemical degree.

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Yup. I was top 10% outta school and waited to the last second to apply to A&M. I thought top 10% meant I was automatically accepted to whatever degree I wanted, but I was wrong. Petroleum was full so I was placed in civil. Biggest blessing ever. I used that civil degree to a career outside of engineering that wouldn't have been open to me if I had a Pete degree. Funny how things work out. But I would definitely recommend not going extremely niche with an engineering pick. I know some mechanicals that do fine in the O&G business and have options elsewhere too.

Ags4DaWin said:

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infinity ag said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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Would recommend staying as far away from healthcare as possible unless it is their passion and they don't care about being in perpetual debt and the risk of getting sued every 2 seconds.

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I never understood this.
If you are a doc with a good specialization, you make good money. If you don't waste money, then why can't you get out of debt in a few years?

What is the average debt for a doc like? Can't they live within their means?

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The issue is threefold.

1) If you're an MD being a family practitioner is no longer an option. That is what NP's are used for now. You are basically forced to specialize after you graduate which not all docs are suited for. So some would be better going the NP route.

2) Residencies have become total DEI cluster****s so good luck matching if ur a straight white male.

3) the amount of debt as Kiddoc pointed out after getting UR MD is about 250k. That's the average. There are some that graduate with nothing either through scholarships (mostly DEI driven so once again good luck to straight white males and asians) or military service but that drives down the average. The MEAN which is the experience of most MD's is more like 350k....basically a home mortgage ur saddled with at graduation.

The first several years in residency u make 70k-80 ish and are working 70 hrs per week at slave wages at the hospital due to our ****ed up MD training system. (They may have capped the hours at 60 with recent legislation...I haven't kept track of that lately)...but 60 hours is still 60 hours.

So MD's on average aren't making good money until they are 30ish.

Once ur an attending or have ur board certification ur making good money low-mid 6 figs on average.

If ur a surgeon ur malpractice insurance is going to be through the roof and you will get sued at some point...pretty much guaranteed.

UR Med School loans are not going to be paid off until ur 35ish because that interest is a ***** to knock down when ur a resident and ur basically only making minimum payments.

So as an MD you are investing minimum 10-12 years post highschool graduation, hoping that you make it through your education, that the match system for residency doesn't **** you over, that you maintain your sanity during residency and pass your specialty boards and that you don't injure your hands or your eyes during your 12 years of post graduate schooling, or that some other family or personal related life crisis does not derail your education and training before you start making good money for 1 year.

That is 12 years of potential pitfalls that can completely derail your life if something happens wrong- and there is ALOT that can go wrong during that time. Just before you start to see a return on your investment.

If something does go wrong then ur saddled with the debt and no high level income to pay it off.

It's a 12 year gamble...not to mention that quality of life for docs has steadily dropped over the years with increased patient load ohhhh and you are pretty much guaranteed to get sued unless u go into pediatrics or dermatology. And if ur a straight white male you need to be Jesus to get into either of those residencies nowadays.

Why would someone in their right mind take that kind of gamble?

Alot of the docs recommending the med school route went through the process before it got turned on its head right around 2010 ish so they don't have a frame of reference for just how whacky the system has become. Add to that the debt and it just does not make economic sense to go that route.

Thanks for the compliment on my posts.

I don't like to toss around things like that as a means of giving my posts authority. I don't believe that test scores, IQ, or academic accolades should give anyone's views more weight than anyone else's and it certainly doesn't make me smart. There are plenty of people either smarter than me or who just plain know more than me.

I know plenty of people that have all that and couldn't hold a candle to my "less educated" friends in the intelligence department.

Some of my dumbest friends are docs

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Thanks Ags4DaWin, that was pretty comprehensive!

I have a doctor friend who is about 45 and I used to meet him for lunch around 2004 and he used to be dead tired all the time. He has told me a few times that he wished he had done something else. He isn't white though. He is very bright and a sharp guy. He ended up getting married late, and they have no kids yet. I didn't ask why but maybe all of this is the reason.

I have an Indian friend whose both kids went into medicine. Older one is in an integrated program an he is about 4-5 years into it. Second one just started with "pre-med". He keeps complaining about the costs which are about $70k/year per child. Of course he is paying for it and also taking out some loans.

Hagen95 said:

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Do you like dealing with people's ***** Because that's what plumbers do. It's literally ****ty work.

Climbing in attics in the summer to work on A/C systems is pretty taxing labor, but it can be a good wage. There are plenty of trade jobs for a reason. Very few people want to do the labor involved.

My kids are looking at careers as they graduate HS now and it's still easily more lucrative to go to a good college and get a good degree. There are plenty of outliers but the averages are still there for college being a good successful life.

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You are right.
I had a problem with some piping and it created a mess on the lower floor with blocked pipes, it was nasty. I preferred to pay the $800 to have them take care of it.

Home renovation work is mainly done by Polish folks. Or Mexicans. Who knows, maybe some are illegal. If you go with a regular contractor they charge an arm and a leg.

samsal75 said:

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Marry a rich woman!!!

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Then she would have you by the balls all your life.

One needs to be a proud emasculated beta to pull this off. I know a few men like that among my friends. Their wives are not rich, but they have good jobs or dress hot, so these guys think they hit the jackpot.

Consider fire/ems. For around $1500, one could attend an EMT course (6 months) and $4000 fire academy (12 weeks) allows for potential earnings of low to mid six figures if you advance through the ranks. Find a well funded and managed department with matching retirement.I would avoid big city departments like Houston, Chicago and NY as well as small town volunteer departments.

SchizoAg said:

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Petroleum engineering or nuclear engineering. Energy is the foundation of all industry. That isn't changing any time soon.

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Petroleum is the last engineering degree I would recommend.