Allegiance to the country of origin that has born you and gives you opportunity.

It's not the school's place to enforce loyalty to the nation, flag, or government. Its place is to educate. Pledging allegiance to ANYTHING is purely political and has nothing to do with education. Legislation requiring conformance to these policies, furthermore, is politically motivated.

It's problematic that your definition of "political" has anything to do with parties, btw.

rwtxag83 said:

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jackson-kyle said:

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State law in Texas for schools to do the Pledge of Allegiance and Texas Pledge, along with a moment of silence. Led the pledges for 11 years as a school principal. Not weird.

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Thank you for taking on this challenging job, sir. I truly appreciate this.

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Thanks. Retired last June. I enjoyed leading the pledges and moment of silence. We also had a kick arse Veterans program in and around 11/11. Have it at Veterans Memorial Stadium in Clear Creek ISD. Didn't allow opt outs. We hosted vets from the community, and even bussed them from local assisted living centers. Had a couple from WWII. It is a very moving program. IMO, we have an obligation to teach citizenship, and a person may go through the motions with the daily pledges but by golly, once a day you are going to get to stand for your country and be as engaged as you want to. That is a choice.

GigEm

AliasMan02 said:

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It's not the school's place to enforce loyalty to the nation, flag, or government. Its place is to educate. Pledging allegiance to ANYTHING is purely political and has nothing to do with education. Legislation requiring conformance to these policies, furthermore, is politically motivated.

It's problematic that your definition of "political" has anything to do with parties, btw.

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What's problematic is how upset you are over a simple pledge to our country. A little daily reminder of what America stands for.

MarathonAg12 said:

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AliasMan02 said:

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It's not the school's place to enforce loyalty to the nation, flag, or government. Its place is to educate. Pledging allegiance to ANYTHING is purely political and has nothing to do with education. Legislation requiring conformance to these policies, furthermore, is politically motivated.

It's problematic that your definition of "political" has anything to do with parties, btw.

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What's problematic is how upset you are over a simple pledge to our country. A little daily reminder of what America stands for.

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I'm not upset at all. I said already this is a relatively benign example.

This is what having principles looks like. You hold a value and measure behavior against it. Having government schools free of political influence is far more important than enforcing positive feelings about the country, especially when it's something that can't possibly have any actual impact.

If it can't have any impact then how is it indoctrination???

Try to keep your narrative straight.

maroon barchetta said:

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If it can't have any impact then how is it indoctrination???

Try to keep your narrative straight.

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It's a policy of indoctrination, even if ineffective. My narrative is fine.

Is your support simply for the US/Texas pledge? Would you support your kids saying a pledge to another state or country if you lived elsewhere?

It's fine if you're pro-politics in schools. Just say that's what it is. I suspect you're fine with YOUR politics in schools, but not in general. That's also a valid position, but you should be clear.

It's not political. It's a pledge that shows you honor your country. All of it. Good, bad, ugly, whatever.

Do you not see what you are doing to yourself here?

I don't think I thought it was weird as a kid, but as an adult, yeah, it's kind of weird. It's also something most other countries don't do.

maroon barchetta said:

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It's not political. It's a pledge that shows you honor your country. All of it. Good, bad, ugly, whatever.

Do you not see what you are doing to yourself here?

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Legislating it is political, even if you think it has non political value. It didn't really become a huge thing until World War II and the "under God" verse wasn't added until religion became a Cold War battleground.

maroon barchetta said:

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It's not political. It's a pledge that shows you honor your country. All of it. Good, bad, ugly, whatever.

Do you not see what you are doing to yourself here?

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You didn't answer my questions, but laughcry all you want.

Mandating a pledge of allegiance is 100% political. Denying that is willfully ignorant.

I get that you love your country and think it's the greatest. So do I. But you're conflating your feelings that America is good with rational and consistent application of principles. Compulsory flag-waving in a government-funded school is ideologically problematic because it introduces political indoctrination - ANY political indoctrination - into education.

Again, if your position is your FEELINGS about America are the CORRECT feelings and so should be enforced universally, that's fine. Just say so instead of denying the politics are present at all. You like politics in education as long as they are YOUR politics.

If it's one thing I think we can all agree with, it's that white men are great and they've been neglected and ostracized long enough and we need to do more to glorify them at home, in the work place and at churches where real Americans are.

Sea speed

Please Stop

I do envy the precision of the North Koreans. I could watch their military parades for hours.

frenchtoast said:

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I do envy the precision of the North Koreans. I could watch their military parades for hours.

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This thread has linked saying the US pledge of allegiance to North Korean military parades.

Classic

AliasMan02 said:

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maroon barchetta said:

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It's not political. It's a pledge that shows you honor your country. All of it. Good, bad, ugly, whatever.

Do you not see what you are doing to yourself here?

---

You didn't answer my questions, but laughcry all you want.

Mandating a pledge of allegiance is 100% political. Denying that is willfully ignorant.

I get that you love your country and think it's the greatest. So do I. But you're conflating your feelings that America is good with rational and consistent application of principles. Compulsory flag-waving in a government-funded school is ideologically problematic because it introduces political indoctrination - ANY political indoctrination - into education.

Again, if your position is your FEELINGS about America are the CORRECT feelings and so should be enforced universally, that's fine. Just say so instead of denying the politics are present at all. You like politics in education as long as they are YOUR politics.

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Counterpoint:

The reason that we as a nation and state are investing in education at all is for the public good. We are putting the resources of the nation to work for the future good of the nation. Baked into that idea is that America is basically good and worth perpetuating.

Essentially, the entire public education system is based on the premise that these feelings about America ARE correct. If they weren't -- if it we were unsure about whether America was a worthy cause and deserved some loyalty -- then maybe we should discuss whether we should even bother with educating our citizens at all.

bagger05 said:

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AliasMan02 said:

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maroon barchetta said:

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It's not political. It's a pledge that shows you honor your country. All of it. Good, bad, ugly, whatever.

Do you not see what you are doing to yourself here?

---

You didn't answer my questions, but laughcry all you want.

Mandating a pledge of allegiance is 100% political. Denying that is willfully ignorant.

I get that you love your country and think it's the greatest. So do I. But you're conflating your feelings that America is good with rational and consistent application of principles. Compulsory flag-waving in a government-funded school is ideologically problematic because it introduces political indoctrination - ANY political indoctrination - into education.

Again, if your position is your FEELINGS about America are the CORRECT feelings and so should be enforced universally, that's fine. Just say so instead of denying the politics are present at all. You like politics in education as long as they are YOUR politics.

---

Counterpoint:

The reason that we as a nation and state are investing in education at all is for the public good. We are putting the resources of the nation to work for the future good of the nation. Baked into that idea is that America is basically good and worth perpetuating.

Essentially, the entire public education system is based on the premise that these feelings about America ARE correct. If they weren't -- if it we were unsure about whether America was a worthy cause and deserved some loyalty -- then maybe we should discuss whether we should even bother with educating our citizens at all.

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I dunno, the more we put resources into schools the dumber society has gotten over the last 100-120 years.


I could make the argument that what is happening in schools is keeping people stupid and pledging allegiance to the flag is reinforcing that the government will take care of them since they werent actually educated.

That one is a classic.

Ragnar Danneskjoldd said:

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bagger05 said:

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AliasMan02 said:

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maroon barchetta said:

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It's not political. It's a pledge that shows you honor your country. All of it. Good, bad, ugly, whatever.

Do you not see what you are doing to yourself here?

---

You didn't answer my questions, but laughcry all you want.

Mandating a pledge of allegiance is 100% political. Denying that is willfully ignorant.

I get that you love your country and think it's the greatest. So do I. But you're conflating your feelings that America is good with rational and consistent application of principles. Compulsory flag-waving in a government-funded school is ideologically problematic because it introduces political indoctrination - ANY political indoctrination - into education.

Again, if your position is your FEELINGS about America are the CORRECT feelings and so should be enforced universally, that's fine. Just say so instead of denying the politics are present at all. You like politics in education as long as they are YOUR politics.

---

Counterpoint:

The reason that we as a nation and state are investing in education at all is for the public good. We are putting the resources of the nation to work for the future good of the nation. Baked into that idea is that America is basically good and worth perpetuating.

Essentially, the entire public education system is based on the premise that these feelings about America ARE correct. If they weren't -- if it we were unsure about whether America was a worthy cause and deserved some loyalty -- then maybe we should discuss whether we should even bother with educating our citizens at all.

---

I dunno, the more we put resources into schools the dumber society has gotten over the last 100-120 years.

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My cynical side says it's all just part of the plan.

bagger05 said:

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AliasMan02 said:

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maroon barchetta said:

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It's not political. It's a pledge that shows you honor your country. All of it. Good, bad, ugly, whatever.

Do you not see what you are doing to yourself here?

---

You didn't answer my questions, but laughcry all you want.

Mandating a pledge of allegiance is 100% political. Denying that is willfully ignorant.

I get that you love your country and think it's the greatest. So do I. But you're conflating your feelings that America is good with rational and consistent application of principles. Compulsory flag-waving in a government-funded school is ideologically problematic because it introduces political indoctrination - ANY political indoctrination - into education.

Again, if your position is your FEELINGS about America are the CORRECT feelings and so should be enforced universally, that's fine. Just say so instead of denying the politics are present at all. You like politics in education as long as they are YOUR politics.

---

Counterpoint:

The reason that we as a nation and state are investing in education at all is for the public good. We are putting the resources of the nation to work for the future good of the nation. Baked into that idea is that America is basically good and worth perpetuating.

Essentially, the entire public education system is based on the premise that these feelings about America ARE correct. If they weren't -- if it we were unsure about whether America was a worthy cause and deserved some loyalty -- then maybe we should discuss whether we should even bother with educating our citizens at all.

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A problem with all government systems is they are incentivized to perpetuate reliance on the system.

bagger05 said:

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Ragnar Danneskjoldd said:

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bagger05 said:

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AliasMan02 said:

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maroon barchetta said:

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It's not political. It's a pledge that shows you honor your country. All of it. Good, bad, ugly, whatever.

Do you not see what you are doing to yourself here?

---

You didn't answer my questions, but laughcry all you want.

Mandating a pledge of allegiance is 100% political. Denying that is willfully ignorant.

I get that you love your country and think it's the greatest. So do I. But you're conflating your feelings that America is good with rational and consistent application of principles. Compulsory flag-waving in a government-funded school is ideologically problematic because it introduces political indoctrination - ANY political indoctrination - into education.

Again, if your position is your FEELINGS about America are the CORRECT feelings and so should be enforced universally, that's fine. Just say so instead of denying the politics are present at all. You like politics in education as long as they are YOUR politics.

---

Counterpoint:

The reason that we as a nation and state are investing in education at all is for the public good. We are putting the resources of the nation to work for the future good of the nation. Baked into that idea is that America is basically good and worth perpetuating.

Essentially, the entire public education system is based on the premise that these feelings about America ARE correct. If they weren't -- if it we were unsure about whether America was a worthy cause and deserved some loyalty -- then maybe we should discuss whether we should even bother with educating our citizens at all.

---

I dunno, the more we put resources into schools the dumber society has gotten over the last 100-120 years.

---

My cynical side says it's all just part of the plan.

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We're actually attempting to educate more of the population than they did 100-120 years ago and tracking the results for everyone.

No

I've submitted a list of all users here complaining about the pledge of allegiance to @FBI @NSA

MarathonAg12 said:

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I've submitted a list of all users here complaining about the pledge of allegiance to @FBI @NSA

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What do you expect them to do, hand out awards?

Sapper Redux said:

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bagger05 said:

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Ragnar Danneskjoldd said:

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bagger05 said:

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AliasMan02 said:

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maroon barchetta said:

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It's not political. It's a pledge that shows you honor your country. All of it. Good, bad, ugly, whatever.

Do you not see what you are doing to yourself here?

---

You didn't answer my questions, but laughcry all you want.

Mandating a pledge of allegiance is 100% political. Denying that is willfully ignorant.

I get that you love your country and think it's the greatest. So do I. But you're conflating your feelings that America is good with rational and consistent application of principles. Compulsory flag-waving in a government-funded school is ideologically problematic because it introduces political indoctrination - ANY political indoctrination - into education.

Again, if your position is your FEELINGS about America are the CORRECT feelings and so should be enforced universally, that's fine. Just say so instead of denying the politics are present at all. You like politics in education as long as they are YOUR politics.

---

Counterpoint:

The reason that we as a nation and state are investing in education at all is for the public good. We are putting the resources of the nation to work for the future good of the nation. Baked into that idea is that America is basically good and worth perpetuating.

Essentially, the entire public education system is based on the premise that these feelings about America ARE correct. If they weren't -- if it we were unsure about whether America was a worthy cause and deserved some loyalty -- then maybe we should discuss whether we should even bother with educating our citizens at all.

---

I dunno, the more we put resources into schools the dumber society has gotten over the last 100-120 years.

---

My cynical side says it's all just part of the plan.

---

We're actually attempting to educate more of the population than they did 100-120 years ago and tracking the results for everyone.

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Okay, lets say the last 30 years then. More resources go in, people are getting dumber. Or, specifically around the time the department of education was created, if you prefer.

Nothing weird about a non-homogeneous, geographically huge country doing its best to make its citizens feel homogeneous…..especially after they have had a bloody, civil war. Almost every bloody conflict in history was due to non-homogeneous groups competing for scarce resources.

i'm fine with ditching the pledges entirely and just having the kids sing the intro to spongebob squarepants every morning

I think everyone who doesn't want to say the pledge should hop on the Chinese Balloon and take a ride on the wild side.

Bruce Almighty said:

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MarathonAg12 said:

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Bruce Almighty said:

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MooreTrucker said:

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I'm frankly surprised that this is, or ever was, a big deal. Yes, I'm an old and grew up in a time where we said it every morning, but I just don't see the harm in it or why it would be considered weird or be objected to.

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I don't care either way, but forced patriotism isn't patriotism. I just don't think it really serves a purpose other than we do it because that's the way it has always been. By the times kids have been saying it for a few years every day, they are no longer really saying it. The words may be coming out of their mouth, but it's mindless memorization. The kids don't care, they're not thinking about what they are saying, and 30 seconds after saying it, they have forgotten they even did it. So again, what purpose does it serve other than it's just the way it's always been. Personally, I think it's harmless, but once kids get to middle school, saying the pledge is kind of dumb.

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Ahh yes, let them be consumed by their social media accounts during their adolescent years and completely forget about how great it is to live in America.

It takes less than 20 seconds to recite good lord

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Again, what purpose does it serve it kids are saying it without really saying it? What are they pledging their allegiance to? When a 14 year old is saying it, do you really think that kid is thinking about how he's pledging his allegiance to this country?

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You are assuming that engaging in an act without fully understanding or engaging in the act completely negates the usefulness of it.

Pretty much all psychological studies prove ur dismissive assumption is false- performing an act even if you are disengaged from it changes how you think and behave. This scientific truth is behind alot of how app companies structure social media, and games on ur phone to literally rewire people's brains. The act in and of itself does make an impact on the brain and attitudes.

That is why primitive cultures acted out rituals on the regular even if the reason behind the ritualistic development was lost to time. It creates social cohesion, reinforces the idea that there is a social contract bigger than oneself, and a variety of other things that are important for kids to learn while growing up- even if they are in middle school.

Ags4DaWin said:

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Bruce Almighty said:

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MarathonAg12 said:

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Bruce Almighty said:

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MooreTrucker said:

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I'm frankly surprised that this is, or ever was, a big deal. Yes, I'm an old and grew up in a time where we said it every morning, but I just don't see the harm in it or why it would be considered weird or be objected to.

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I don't care either way, but forced patriotism isn't patriotism. I just don't think it really serves a purpose other than we do it because that's the way it has always been. By the times kids have been saying it for a few years every day, they are no longer really saying it. The words may be coming out of their mouth, but it's mindless memorization. The kids don't care, they're not thinking about what they are saying, and 30 seconds after saying it, they have forgotten they even did it. So again, what purpose does it serve other than it's just the way it's always been. Personally, I think it's harmless, but once kids get to middle school, saying the pledge is kind of dumb.

---

Ahh yes, let them be consumed by their social media accounts during their adolescent years and completely forget about how great it is to live in America.

It takes less than 20 seconds to recite good lord

---

Again, what purpose does it serve it kids are saying it without really saying it? What are they pledging their allegiance to? When a 14 year old is saying it, do you really think that kid is thinking about how he's pledging his allegiance to this country?

---

You are assuming that engaging in an act without fully understanding or engaging in the act completely negates the usefulness of it.

Pretty much all psychological studies prove that is false. The act in and of itself does make an impact on the brain and attitudes.

That is why primitive cultures acted out rituals on the regular even if the reason behind the ritualistic development was lost to time. It creates social cohesion, reinforces the idea that there is a social contract bugger than oneself, and a variety of other things that are important for kids to learn while growing up- even if they are in middle school.

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Mind your language there, laddie.

Ha!

Saying it in the parking lot at teh Walmarts is kinda weird.

It gives me goose-stepping bumps to think about it.