Another 737 down

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8:52a, 3/10/19
AG
Another new 737 MAX has crashed shortly after takeoff. This time in Ethiopia.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/03/10/africa/ethiopia-airline-crash-nairobi-intl/index.html

No survivors. This is the same model of plane which crashed shortly after take off in Indonesia. Multiple Americans on board, along with a lot of European and Chinese citizens.
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Picard
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8:57a, 3/10/19
AG
I'm going to jump to conclusions and say it was a training problem

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Dddfff
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9:02a, 3/10/19
AG
Feared BIL and SIL were aboard, since they left yesterday from ORD to climb Mount Kilimanjaro and the location of this and the timing scared me. But they left later in the day yesterday than I thought.

Also, I think there is a material flaw with the planes more so than the pilots.
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CharlieBrown17
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In reply to Picard • 9:04a, 3/10/19
AG
Picard said:
I'm going to jump to conclusions and say it was a training problem



Pilot flying had 8,000 flight hours.
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In reply to Picard • 9:06a, 3/10/19
AG
Ethiopian Airlines is a very good, reputable airline. It is probably the best airline in that region of the world. There is a reason so many westerners were on board. I have flown with them twice, very good experience. The pilot had over 8000 hours of flight time, and this was a brand new plane.

Something is wrong with this model of airplane. The flight path characteristics are just so eerily similar to Indonesia.
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Fonzie Scheme
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11:10a, 3/10/19
AG
See you in court, Boeing.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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11:17a, 3/10/19
AG
******* it, Walter White.
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Old RV Ag
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In reply to CharlieBrown17 • 11:25a, 3/10/19
AG
CharlieBrown17 said:
Picard said:
I'm going to jump to conclusions and say it was a training problem


Pilot flying had 8,000 flight hours.
Part of the problem is that Boeing sold their MAX models saying no new training required. Even the most experience pilot needs training on new aircraft especially how much avionics updates Boeing did on the MAX. The 737 8 MAX is likely going to be grounded. As for pilot training there was a case a few years ago of a B-1 Bomber pilot who aided the co-pilot land a commercial jet after the captain had a heart attack. The B-1 pilot even said all he did was help call out altitudes, speeds, visual, etc. and it would have been essentially impossible to have landed the jet himself without training.
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quanah
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In reply to Dddfff • 12:11p, 3/10/19
I've been to Kilimanjaro airport, did they fly KLM?
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Picard
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In reply to Old RV Ag • 1:02p, 3/10/19
AG
Old RV Ag said:
CharlieBrown17 said:
Picard said:
I'm going to jump to conclusions and say it was a training problem


Pilot flying had 8,000 flight hours.
Part of the problem is that Boeing sold their MAX models saying no new training required. Even the most experience pilot needs training on new aircraft especially how much avionics updates Boeing did on the MAX. The 737 8 MAX is likely going to be grounded. As for pilot training there was a case a few years ago of a B-1 Bomber pilot who aided the co-pilot land a commercial jet after the captain had a heart attack. The B-1 pilot even said all he did was help call out altitudes, speeds, visual, etc. and it would have been essentially impossible to have landed the jet himself without training.


Bingo
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Dddfff
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In reply to quanah • 2:52p, 3/10/19
AG
quanah said:
I've been to Kilimanjaro airport, did they fly KLM?

Yes, my wife and I just didn't know their itenerary so we were a little scared until we were told what it was.
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denied
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3:10p, 3/10/19
While it may be a training issue, I don't think it is a pilot one. I think there is a maintenance issue that the ground guys have not been taught how to address.
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Guppy
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In reply to Picard • 3:15p, 3/10/19
AG
Having personally flown the Max around 14 flights I can tell you the differences are not as great as some make it out to be. It would be a folly for me to try to dive too much into the technical differences - as many pilots can attest, we fly the plane, we don't build the plane. However, I believe my company and Boeing have done their part to educate us on the subtle differences.

As far as what the B-1 pilot said, I call BS. I have flown multiple aircraft in a level D simulator - the B-777, B-757, A-300 and the DC-10. With minimal coaching I was able to safely land the "aircraft" in the simulator. Were the landings the best? No. But I believe most part 121 pilots would have had a similar result.

Bottom line - I will wait til the NTSB and FAA coming out with a ruling. I am also scheduled to fly the MAX later today in fact and have zero concerns.
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Swarely
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3:18p, 3/10/19
Oh wow. A few years back I (along with my sister and parents) flew that same route with the same airline. T&Ps to the families involved.
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In reply to Swarely • 3:53p, 3/10/19
PrincessButtercup
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6:16p, 3/10/19
AG
The pilot was the cousin of an Aggie
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Aggie95
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In reply to Guppy • 8:16p, 3/10/19
AG
Guppy said:
Having personally flown the Max around 14 flights I can tell you the differences are not as great as some make it out to be. It would be a folly for me to try to dive too much into the technical differences - as many pilots can attest, we fly the plane, we don't build the plane. However, I believe my company and Boeing have done their part to educate us on the subtle differences.

As far as what the B-1 pilot said, I call BS. I have flown multiple aircraft in a level D simulator - the B-777, B-757, A-300 and the DC-10. With minimal coaching I was able to safely land the "aircraft" in the simulator. Were the landings the best? No. But I believe most part 121 pilots would have had a similar result.

Bottom line - I will wait til the NTSB and FAA coming out with a ruling. I am also scheduled to fly the MAX later today in fact and have zero concerns.
I wish I had your level of confidence. I start a new job on Monday that will require a significant amount of air travel and these last 3 recent crashes (Lion Air, Amazon air, Ethiopian Air) have really rattled my nerves.
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Guppy
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In reply to Aggie95 • 9:09p, 3/10/19
AG
I understand your concern, I really do. At the end of the day, I am far more concerned (truth not BS) about driving than I am about flying.

Accidents happen. Mistakes are made. To err is to be human. But commercial aviation, specifically passenger 121 air carriers in the USA, are the safest, most regulated mode of transport out there. Bar none.
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MemorialTXAg
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In reply to Guppy • 10:50p, 3/10/19
Guppy said:
I understand your concern, I really do. At the end of the day, I am far more concerned (truth not BS) about driving than I am about flying.

Accidents happen. Mistakes are made. To err is to be human. But commercial aviation, specifically passenger 121 air carriers in the USA, are the safest, most regulated mode of transport out there. Bar none.


Thanks for the input here. Out of curiosity, how much training did you (or pilots in general) get on the MAX 8? From reading some of the articles there is some confusion around the MCAS system and how to manually deactivate it. According to NYT some pilots claim this new system and its function in MAX hasn't been explained properly.
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Hey Nav
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In reply to Guppy • 12:25a, 3/11/19
AG
Thanks for the comments, Guppy.

TexAgs delivers - there always seems to be someone who actually has knowledge and can make relevant, educated remarks on pretty much any subject.

Fly safe.
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Guppy
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In reply to MemorialTXAg • 2:33a, 3/11/19
AG
I felt the information that was put out about the MCAS system was adequate and informative. I had a few questions and was able to get ahold of a check airman and my questions were answered.

Moreover, as a pilot group, we have spent countless hours in the flight deck discussing the system and how to handle it. Bottom line, it's not that complicated to over ride the system. Do you need to be aware of it and mentally be prepared to execute the proper actions in the highly unlikely event it occurs? Absolutely. But to me it's just being aware and ready. No different than what I need to do in the event of an engine loss on take off, windshear, rapid depressurization or any other number of highly unlikely events.

I don't think I'm being gung ho, I just think it's good training, confidence and, most importantly, staying calm if anything were to happen.
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BassCowboy33
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9:52a, 3/11/19

Lion Air Pilots battled plane's anti-stall system

Interesting stuff. Sounds like this has been an enormous worry for a while now. Allegedly, the plane's new anti-stall system can override the manual pilot and automatically go into a dive, even during takeoff.
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GAC06
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In reply to BassCowboy33 • 10:07a, 3/11/19
AG
The system can be overridden if the pilots recognize what's happening. Also, no it can't happen on takeoff because it's only enabled with the flaps up.
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ClickClack
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In reply to GAC06 • 10:14a, 3/11/19
AG
GAC06 said:
The system can be overridden if the pilots recognize what's happening. Also, no it can't happen on takeoff because it's only enabled with the flaps up.


Flaps are set to zero fairly quickly after takeoff. Definitely within 6 minutes.
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GAC06
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In reply to ClickClack • 10:27a, 3/11/19
AG
ClickClack said:
GAC06 said:
The system can be overridden if the pilots recognize what's happening. Also, no it can't happen on takeoff because it's only enabled with the flaps up.


Flaps are set to zero fairly quickly after takeoff. Definitely within 6 minutes.


Typically at 1000 feet or very shortly after. So not on takeoff.
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BassCowboy33
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In reply to GAC06 • 10:33a, 3/11/19
GAC06 said:
ClickClack said:
GAC06 said:
The system can be overridden if the pilots recognize what's happening. Also, no it can't happen on takeoff because it's only enabled with the flaps up.


Flaps are set to zero fairly quickly after takeoff. Definitely within 6 minutes.


Typically at 1000 feet or very shortly after. So not on takeoff.
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ClickClack
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In reply to GAC06 • 10:34a, 3/11/19
AG
GAC06 said:
ClickClack said:
GAC06 said:
The system can be overridden if the pilots recognize what's happening. Also, no it can't happen on takeoff because it's only enabled with the flaps up.


Flaps are set to zero fairly quickly after takeoff. Definitely within 6 minutes.


Typically at 1000 feet or very shortly after. So not on takeoff.


Right. I'm saying in the case of the Ethiopian crash they were having issues well after the point of flaps zero.
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GAC06
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In reply to BassCowboy33 • 10:48a, 3/11/19
AG
BassCowboy33 said:
GAC06 said:
ClickClack said:
GAC06 said:
The system can be overridden if the pilots recognize what's happening. Also, no it can't happen on takeoff because it's only enabled with the flaps up.


Flaps are set to zero fairly quickly after takeoff. Definitely within 6 minutes.


Typically at 1000 feet or very shortly after. So not on takeoff.


What you said was factually incorrect. If you meant to say something else, what was it?
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Thomas Sowell, PhD
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11:25a, 3/11/19
AG
BA stock down 7.7% this morning
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MemorialTXAg
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7:34p, 3/12/19
MAX 8 grounded across Europe. Overreaction or smart precaution?
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Shakes the Clown
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8:08p, 3/12/19
I just flew on one and no shets were given by your friendly neighborhood clown - Shakes!
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H.E. Pennypacker
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1:50p, 3/13/19
AG
Everyone's favorite president just grounded them in the USA.
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Guppy
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1:51p, 3/13/19
AG
Knee Jerk reaction....
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Ragoo
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In reply to Shakes the Clown • 2:05p, 3/13/19
AG
Shakes the Clown said:
I just flew on one and no shets were given by your friendly neighborhood clown - Shakes!
but are you Human or just a bot?
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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2:29p, 3/13/19
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