Geez, The Boy Scouts of America is really going down the crapper. A friend of mine's son just got back from his Order of the Arrow Ordeal and this is what he told me. First, let me explain that The Order of the Arrow is a select group of scouts voted on by the troop to study and follow Indian Lore. The "Tap Out", is a ceremony where boys are accepted into the overnight "Ordeal" to be a member of the OA. This consists of three big Indian-costumed Warriors who congratulate a scout and then firmly WOP! him three times on top of the shoulder to "tap him in". Theses WOPs are firm, but by no means painful or are hazing. After the Tap Out, the scouts go on a long hike where they stop along the way at various campfires and learn about Indian lore. Then they sleep on the bare ground and have a meager breakfast the next morning and then after more Indian lore, the Ordeal is finished in the early afternoon. During the Ordeal, the rule is absolutly no talking. It's supposed to be like the young braves in a tribe having an Ordeal or Vision Quest to be accepted as a young warrior into the tribe. I thought my Ordeal was a truely awesome experience that gave me pride and confidence as a yong man.

Now, the no talking rule has also been abolished; seems that it's just too hard on the poor little scouts.

As a former Eagle Scout and OA member, it brings a sad tear to my eyes to see what has become of Scouting. I know it's a different time and age, but soon, Boy Scouts will be able to recieve their Eagle Scout award over the internet!!!

Southlake,

E-mail me at jwells@aggies.com if you have concerns.

There haven't been any changes in BSA policy about the things you mentioned in the 12 years I've been an OA member.

You can do an APPLICATION for Eagle soon, but that's about it.

Scouting and OA are just fine, actually. I work with a troop and a crew on a weekly basis. They may have done away with the tapping a while ago, I don't even remember being tapped umpteen years ago when I was elected to OA.

As for the silence thing, I don't know about that. I'll ask if it's still being done in our council. That was a pretty big part of Ordeal for me.

[edited by staff]

[This message has been edited by TexAgs staff (edited 4/28/2003 11:52a).]

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Not funny. Please edit, thanks.

When I worked at Lost Pines 12 years ago people were already griping about the tap out stuff being to hard on the kids. Silly.

Cubby,
i edited for you.

This Scout is a member of the Longhorn Council. I just talked to him yesterday about the Ordeal. Could it be just a Council policy??

I do have other concerns about the difficulty of recieving Eagle. The whole merit badge system is much easier now. Many items can be waivered if the Scout can't physically accomplish the requirements. For example: Lifesaving used to be the toughest Merit Badge. You either could do it or not.Now, poor swimmers can get Lifesaving "academically". Eagle used to be damned hard to get, now it's just a matter of time and manuevering.

I understand the pressures on Scouting, but lowering standards to keep it going debases it's currency.

(Hey Skinny, I'd appreciate it if you'd just edit your whole post. I know you dont care, but that's not funny. Thanks.)

[This message has been edited by Southlake (edited 4/28/2003 10:23a).]

Bad bull Skinny.

OA was a huge part of scouting when I got my Eagle. Most of my best friends to this day are former OA leadership. I hate to think that an anti-hazing backlash would ruin the character development of OA.

BBTA!

skinny posted a pretty good boyscout page on this thread:
http://texags.com/main/forum.reply.asp?topic_id=218615&forum_id=12

Southlake,

Swimming MB has been an alternate to Lifesaving for years...that's how I qualified.

Nothing you mentioned has been that new...actually, a return to old times, if anything. Eagle is still more difficult to achive now than it was pre-1950's, when it was another rank.

I don't think someone that comes up through Scouting should be denied the opportunity to be an Eagle Scout just because they have a legitimate reason why they can't meet those swimming requirements. Should an A&M student not receive a degree if they have a physical handicap preventing them from swimming? These exceptions just that: exceptions, and not the rule.



Proc,

The OA hasn't made serious changes to induction procedures since I went through them, and I still got a high quality leadership experience from many years of service.

"First, let me explain that The Order of the Arrow is a select group of scouts voted on by the troop to study and follow Indian Lore."

Southlake, I don't know if the purpose has changed since you were a boy or not, but camping promotion and service are clearly the objectives today.

Purpose of the Order:
To recognize those campers -- Scouts and Scouters -- who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives, and by such recognition cause other campers to conduct themselves in such manner as to warrant recognition.

To develop and maintain camping traditions and spirit.

To promote Scout camping, which reaches its greatest effectiveness as a part of the unit's camping program, both year-round and in the summer camp, as directed by the camping committee of the council.

To crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others.

http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/purpose-mission.htm

Personally, I don't have any problem with Scouting's efforts to eliminate anything that could facilitate or be misconstrued as hazing.

THE LIFE AND DEATH OF HAZING

If the Order of the Arrow has ever had a black mark, it would be in the area of hazing. But through the years, efforts--sometimes unpopular at the time--have been put forth to stem the fraternal instinct to put new brothers through a grueling, even physically painful initiation.

Today, Ordeal candidates are treated as honorees. In fact, they are. Their troops have elected them as dignitaries worthy to wear the white sash. And they are treated as such.

Over the years, the student of Mikanakawa Lodge history can find that the Lodge has grown the most--both in numbers and in spirit--when Lodge members treated new candidates with respect. By setting a positive example of what the OA really is, new Ordeal members are more likely to go on to be productive, long-term Lodge members.

But change is not something that has happened overnight in the area of hazing. It seems the issue of hazing has been with the Lodge since 1937. And though great and noble efforts have been put forth on numerous occasions to rid the Lodge of the scourge of hazing, few have survived.

In the early years of the Mikanakawa Lodge, tap out ceremonies were called "Knock-Out Ceremonies." Indeed, they were. As longtime Mikanakawa brother Ed Reitz describes it:

"There wasn't any tapping on the shoulder or anything like that. They just hit you on the chest--real hard."
Jim Hodge, who took his Ordeal in 1937, recalls the rough knock-out ceremonies "darn near broke a clavicle a time or two."
By the late 1940's, Lodge Chief Bill Jordan recalls run-ins with young adult leaders over the issue of hazing. At the time, physical cruelty didn't limit itself to the Knock-out Ceremony. Bill recalls people on their Ordeals experiencing some numbness in their left wrists because their wrist was tied to the wrist of the person in front of them. To overcome the problem, Lodge officers of the Bill Jordan era started having the candidates simply hold the rope while going through the ceremony. This is still done today.

In 1958, Lodge Chief Ray Telfair was so fed up with the proliferation of hazing, that he sent out a "Message From The Chief" to all brothers, reading:

"I hope that you appreciate what we mean by "Ordeal Ceremonies." This is truly a ceremony and not an initiation. Therefore, it is our duty as an Order of the Arrow member to assist the candidates in the spirit of cheerful service. There must be no heckling, badgering, hazing, or any other interference that will lessen the dignity of their Ordeal."
Telfair's letter went on to warn brothers that a committee had been appointed that had the authority to require any member offending an Ordeal candidate to leave the camp.

But as Associate Lodge Adviser Jimmy Harris recalls, the 1960's still saw their share of hazing, although the situation was improving.

Finally, in the 1970's and 1980's, a realization hit: the Mikanakawa Lodge membership was dwindling. The Lodge didn't need to run members off by senseless hazing.

Another major contributing factor to the death of hazing has been the addition of qualified crew leaders. Crew Leader Training--called Elangomat today--has improved to such a level that crew leaders know what is and is not expected of them. They tend to realize that their job is not to see how hard their potential candidates can work. Rather, the crew leaders have one of the most critical responsibilities of all. They serve as the first impression new candidates have of what the Order of the Arrow is all about.

http://www.miki.org/lodgehis/hazinghis.htm

Agreed Southlake. As a former lifesaving counselor, I flunked scouts who were likely to get themselves or others killed. No one ever questioned it, not in five years. If they flunked, they flunked.

My son is in scouting now, has his requirements for Life already knocked out at 13. It has been so easy. There are no skill awards now, summer camps have a program that knocks out most requirements for tenderfoot through first class. NO requirement to start a fire with only two matches. That was a hard one. I wonder frequently if he is getting from scouting what he ought to be getting.

I'm also an Eagle Scout and OA memeber although I haven't been active since I left for A&M.

When I was 'tapped out' for OA there wasn't an actual tapping just a hand grabed me from behind and pulled me out of the circle. We did have to maintain the silence code and did a pretty good job. I also remember doing some sort of work project as part of our Ordeal. I think we rebuilt a small foot bridge over a creek, if I rememeber corectly. You want to talk about tough. Getting 10 guys to work together with out talking and with everyone's stomach's growling. That was a day I will always remember as a day I learned a lot about my self and what I could do.

Southlake,

quote:

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As a former Eagle Scout and OA member,

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Once your an Eagle Scout your always an Eagle scout.

changing regulations is just a crazy idea....If a kid doesn't think they can make it through, don't do it, simple enough.......And yes, I too am a member of the OA as well as an Eagle Scout (can't wait to have a son that I can introduce to the world of scouting)

You're right, always an Eagle.

Tough questions and answers. I see many points both ways. I do have a problem with today's, "What can you do for me" attitudes that seem to dribble down to the kids. My Ordeal was tough, but we were respected for being tough. In youth sports,every kid gets a trophy now, even for a last place finish. When I was a kid, a trophy meant you were the champion, nothing less. Every kid can make Eagle now, regardless of his ability.

Southlake....you are a former Eagle Scout?

You mentioned the Longhorn Council, is it official that this council and OA lodge have merged with Waco...and thus no longer around?

Swimming and Physical Fitness are the two MB that are interchangeable. Not Swimming and Lifesaving. That wouldnt make any sense.

As for the BSA, it has gone to hell.

Its lifesaving and emergency preparedness that are interchangeable. That actually may be a compromise for scouts that are physically handicapped.

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you are correct sir....

And it is also bc since you might earn Physical Fitness instead of swimming, you can not earn Lifesaving with out swimming MB so Emergency Preparedness would be your other choice.

[This message has been edited by Aggie99 (edited 4/28/2003 11:14a).]

"Gone to hell" may be a little too strong. Even if it isn't as rigorous as it used to be, there is still something to be gained by having boys work together to plan and execute a campout. My son has really gained a lot of self-confidence and learned to be part of a team as a result. The boys are not shy about identifying slackers either!
In our troop, the scoutmaster is merit badge counselor for several merit badges...and the word is out that he follows the book. For this reason, many scouts in our troop do not attempt some of the more difficult merit badges. The troop still produces on average one Eagle scout a year, so I don't really feel that it's gotten too easy to get Eagle rank, at least not in our Troop.
Also, I've been to one of the meetings where the troop adult membership interviews prospective Eagle scouts about their Eagle Project and presentation, and they GRILLED him. He was almost in tears.

In my opinion what has changed about scouting isn't so much about the basic requirements or ranks but rather about the parental influence.

I'm not directly invovled with a troop right now but I see the troop at our church and talk to some of the leaders on ocasion. I even go to the Eagle Courts of Honor to welcome the new Eagles. I think it has more to do with parents pushing their kids so fast. There is also a use of the numbers of Eagles produced as a way of measuring the quality of a troop.

I think that the time in rank requirements should be lengthened if anything is changed. This would allow boys to grow up more and learn the things that can't be taught in a merit badge handbook or summer camp.

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Agree with that statement 100%.......length of time spent is probably one of the most important aspects. They mature more, makes it harder to earn (bc you have to stick with it longer), etc. etc.

That was also one of my complaints....some guys just raced through it. They learned little to nothing.

As with anything, a person gets out of the program what they're willing to put in.

Like it or not, the median age for Boy Scouts has been dropping for years, to settle around 13.

That's why we have Venturing, right Cubby?

http://www.scouting.org/venturing

Dont get me started on Venturing.

Feel free, Aggie99. I'd actually like to know.

jwells@aggies.com

Its on its way.

Are all boy scouts still dorks like when I was in elementary school?

Everyone deserves to be in the "Order of the Arrow"
If "everyone" can't be a part, then we should lower the standards. Everyone's a winner!! Now take out your circle of paper....
--- this is the problem with the 'ol USA right now.

if you check out the old requirements for Eagle scout from the 30s and 40's it was incredibly hard and was more about camping and survival.

The boy scouts are under alot of pressure these days from gays, godless and girls.

It used to be a little challenging.

The OA IMHO is useless

The OA is pretty shot in some areas..but some Lodges are still worth it.

As for the BSA, it is all about the troop. If you can find a good troop, then you will have a great experience and learn great things. If your troop is lame...as most are these days...then it will seem worthless. Just put in the time to find a great troop, or make one yourself. That is the only way to go.

Oh yeah, it also helps if you get rid of all the adults. Let the Boys do it.

I actually still remember my OA Tap Out. And the Ordeal. My Dad was elected as a Scouter, so we went to Ordeal together.

Alcoholics go to Meetings, Drunks go to Bars.

As great as you may have thought that was for you and your dad, part of what would make scouting better is if the adults would back off. The Scouts need to have these experiences on their own, without their parents. It is part of the growing up process. Actually, there is no reason for an adult to be inducted to the OA....they are not scouts, and can not participate as a scout. It is an organization for the scouts and should be left alone (except for the occasional advisor, etc.)

Just my opinion. I am sure many will disagree.

In the case of OA, it was and should be boy run, with the assistance of adult advisors.

The easiest way to ruin a lodge is to let adults run it, which drives away youth leadership.

That was the point of OA. Elect young leaders to membership, teach them to be better leaders and hopefully lodge leaders.

"Ah, sir, I'm from Troop 59 and we'd like to know if we can borrow your left handed smoke shifter..."


Halcyon Days!