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Ornlu
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7:59a, 12/17/18
AG
Alright, I've decided I'm going to brew a double batch of winter ales this upcoming weekend. Finally socked away enough PTO and placated the honey-do list, so I've got a free Saturday.

I'm going to do a split batch. 1 Mash, 1 wort, 1 boil. But then run off 5.5 gals of it, and add some spices. Keep the other 5.5 gals in the kettle, and add a bunch more sugar. First half will be a spiced winter ale (American style). Second half will be an english winter warmer.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/748402/winter-warmer

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/748404/winter-spiced-ale


So the malt schedule needs to be combined, for both. I'm currently thinking:
  • 16 lbs 2-row pale
  • 2 lbs Vienna
  • 2 lbs Biscuit
  • 1 lb crystal. But what strength tho? 20? 80?
  • 1 lb of something to increase body & head retention. Oats? Torrified wheat?

The warmer will then get 1lb amber DME, 0.5lb mollases, and 0.5lb dark candi sugar, brought back to a boil just to dissolve. The spiced ale will get some cloves, anise, and nutmeg straight into the fermenter.

What yeast? I'm honestly thinking US-05 on both but I can afford the separate them if it'll really make a difference. Temperature control isn't a problem.

Advice please on the malts.
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62strat
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11:20a, 12/17/18
AG
Flaked oats are great for head retention. Use about 5% of grain bill.

For crystal malts, you said strength, but you meant lovibond, which is color. A C-20 contributes the same amount of sugar as a C-80, but C-80 is darker (so overall SRM will be higher). Do you use beersmith? Throw in a few different crystals and see the final color and just pick one.

Not sure about yeast on those styles.
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AlaskanAg99
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11:46a, 12/17/18
AlaskanAg99
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11:48a, 12/17/18
AG
1 pound of C20 will give you an crazy different flavor profile than C80. It's not just about color. The caramel flavors are drastically different and you can adjust color using a lot of malts that's aren't crystal.

Also, are you using the first runnings for beer A, then continuing to sparge later for beer B? Or are you starting the whole thing f to the BK, then separating by volume to give identical worts?
aTm '99
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fav13andac1)c
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11:51a, 12/17/18
AG
I usually use Carapils at a rate of about 10% for head retention and body. Doesn't add flavor.

Yeast, US-05 should be fine. Yeast is taking a back seat.
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Ornlu
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In reply to AlaskanAg99 • 12:01p, 12/17/18
AG
AlaskanAg99 said:
1 pound of C20 will give you an crazy different flavor profile than C80. It's not just about color. The caramel flavors are drastically different and you can adjust color using a lot of malts that's aren't crystal.

That's exactly what I'm asking. I want a lot of residual sweetness in the Winter Warmer, but that will come from the DME, candi syrup, and molasses. I don't want a lot of residual sweetness in the spiced ale. I'm aiming for more of a 1.012 finish on that.

Quote:
Also, are you using the first runnings for beer A, then continuing to sparge later for beer B? Or are you starting the whole thing f to the BK, then separating by volume to give identical worts?

The whole mash will be runoff into the kettle at once. So I'll mash ~22 pound of grain with ~14 gallons of water, run it into kettle, boil, add hops for 60 minutes, chill to ~110F, and run 5.5 gallons thru counterflow --> fermenter at ~70F. That's the first (spiced ale) beer. Just toss spices into fermenter.

Then bring remaining 5.5 gallons back up to boil, add the adjunct sugars and boil maybe 5 more mins. Then chill to 70F and --> fermenter. That's the second (Winter warmer) beer.
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Ornlu
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In reply to fav13andac1)c • 12:04p, 12/17/18
AG
fav13andac1)c said:
I usually use Carapils at a rate of about 10% for head retention and body. Doesn't add flavor.

Yeast, US-05 should be fine. Yeast is taking a back seat.
I've never used Carapils. What does it offer that oats or torrified wheat doesn't? I suppose I'm not so much going for a "silky" texture as I am great head retention and full body. Carapils does sound like a better fit after a cursory google.
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AlaskanAg99
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In reply to Ornlu • 12:26p, 12/17/18
AG
Ornlu said:
AlaskanAg99 said:
1 pound of C20 will give you an crazy different flavor profile than C80. It's not just about color. The caramel flavors are drastically different and you can adjust color using a lot of malts that's aren't crystal.

That's exactly what I'm asking. I want a lot of residual sweetness in the Winter Warmer, but that will come from the DME, candi syrup, and molasses. I don't want a lot of residual sweetness in the spiced ale. I'm aiming for more of a 1.012 finish on that.


So the style is 17A British strong ale. There are some examples of classics, not sure if you're trying to hit one of those. But finding a clone recipe would be the best way, IMHO, to ballpark the adjuncts and Crystal additions. I don't know enough about these to really give a solid opinion. Or if you can find a BYO clone and get the beer to taste it to sort of identify what you like or don't and adjust the recipe that way.

Quote:
Quote:
Also, are you using the first runnings for beer A, then continuing to sparge later for beer B? Or are you starting the whole thing f to the BK, then separating by volume to give identical worts?

The whole mash will be runoff into the kettle at once. So I'll mash ~22 pound of grain with ~14 gallons of water, run it into kettle, boil, add hops for 60 minutes, chill to ~110F, and run 5.5 gallons thru counterflow --> fermenter at ~70F. That's the first (spiced ale) beer. Just toss spices into fermenter.

Then bring remaining 5.5 gallons back up to boil, add the adjunct sugars and boil maybe 5 more mins. Then chill to 70F and --> fermenter. That's the second (Winter warmer) beer.


Gotcha. I was concerned the 1st beer would be extra high gravity and the 2nd would be thin and really odd. I always live the idea of 2 beers from a mash.

I'd probably do a blend of two yeasts. 2 vials of English yeast, 1 Chico, blend them together split and pitch. Get a little more yeast character with the finishing prowess of the Chico strain.
aTm '99
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G. hirsutum Ag
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1:00p, 12/17/18
AG
I vote S-05 in the first batch and S-04 in the second. American vs english. Probably splitting hairs a touch but both are great strains.
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62strat
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In reply to AlaskanAg99 • 1:37p, 12/17/18
AG
AlaskanAg99 said:
1 pound of C20 will give you an crazy different flavor profile than C80. It's not just about color. The caramel flavors are drastically different and you can adjust color using a lot of malts that's aren't crystal.
sorry, I wasn't implying it won't.. but it certainly doesn't affect strength, which is was I thought he was asking about.

It's ONLY flavor and color.
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Ornlu
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In reply to 62strat • 1:54p, 12/17/18
AG
Sorry, I spoke very imprecisely. I really mean what rating/grade of Crystal to use. Yes, they vary by Lovibond but also by % of unfermentable sugar and % of residual sugar perception. I'm a horrible judge of "how sweet is this", so I generally prefer things with very dry finish and thus avoid crystal. However, it's pretty style appropriate here. I'm just out of my element.

Looking at other published Winter Warmer (for Young's, Rahr's, and Harpoon's) clones, they're mostly calling for Crystal 60L, between 1% and 4% of the grain bill. They're also doing a lot of chocolate or roasted barley, but I want to avoid that flavor because of the second batch needing a light color. I'll just have to get the color from the molasses.

Seven - Done. I don't have stir plates for 2 starters, so just going to dump 2x satchets in each.

I think I'm leaning toward doing
  • 3% Crystal 60L
  • 5% Carapils
  • 7% biscuit malt
  • no vienna
  • 85% 2-row pale

That'll put the spiced ale at OG=1.062, FG=1.012, ABV=6.8%, SRM=8, and IBUs=25.
and the winter warmer at OG=1.076, FG=1.018, ABV=7.8%, SRM=14, and IBUs=30.
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Ornlu
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7:05a, 12/18/18
AG
Well son of a beach. Went to get supplies last night and found out that my LHBS is permanently closed. Shut their doors on 12/01/18.

Guess I'm going to order from these guys: https://www.txbrewing.com/
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AlaskanAg99
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7:55a, 12/18/18
AG
Lot of the guys in my club order from Stubbys even over my LHBS because his prices are better.
aTm '99
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62strat
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8:40a, 12/18/18
AG
Dang that sucks. I find it's great to have a balance of a local place when you want to pick up either sack of base grain/few pounds of specialty grain, a yeast packet or an ounce of hops. Then have an online place for equipment and other larger purchases that get you the free shipping.
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bmc13
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In reply to Ornlu • 11:06a, 12/18/18
AG
Ornlu said:
Well son of a beach. Went to get supplies last night and found out that my LHBS is permanently closed. Shut their doors on 12/01/18.

Guess I'm going to order from these guys: https://www.txbrewing.com/


are you in dfw? ever been to home brew headquarters in richardson?
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Ornlu
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In reply to bmc13 • 12:01p, 12/18/18
AG
I am, and I have been. But I live in Denton so it's an hour+drive each way in traffic. Might as well just get it shipped.
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bmc13
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12:26p, 12/18/18
bmc13
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12:27p, 12/18/18
AG
austin homebrew is having a $10 off $50, $30 off $150 sale right now.

just too bad they only have flat rate texas shipping anymore
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G. hirsutum Ag
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4:13p, 12/18/18
AG
Just found an older guy getting out selling his setup for cheap. It's nothing fancy but it's a horizontal rig with 1 pump, RIMS, and a plate chiller. 2 SS decent kettles and a blichman false bottom, plus the rolling table. He probably has 8-900 tied up in it. Selling it all for $200. Eventually I'll need to rework the plumbing and add another pump but it's a huge upgrade from my single infusion setup I have now. Going to pick it up Monday!
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bmc13
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6:06p, 12/18/18
AG
nice
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G. hirsutum Ag
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6:26p, 12/18/18
AG


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G. hirsutum Ag
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6:28p, 12/18/18
AG
I'm trying to figure out exactly how he used it. I think I have a good grasp on it. I'll rework the plumbing and add some ports at some point.
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Ornlu
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In reply to G. hirsutum Ag • 9:09p, 12/18/18
AG
Can I caution you to figure out exactly why it's built the way it's built, before you improve on it? The guy definitely had a reason for building it the way he built it. Better to understand before modifying, rather than after.
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G. hirsutum Ag
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In reply to Ornlu • 9:22p, 12/18/18
AG
It will be a bit before I change anything. Looks to me like he has the tubes in front to be able to pull liquid out of whichever tank he wanted and send to the pump. He has it set to where everything passes over the RIMS coil and then out another hose to either recirc mash, sparge, or run hot wort through the plate chiller. I'll talk to him for a good bit when I go pick it up so he can give me the run down.
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Ornlu
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In reply to G. hirsutum Ag • 9:29p, 12/18/18
AG
That all sounds very appropriate and typical for a RIMS system. Nothing that needs changing now.

Soft piping is better than hard piping. It's easier to replace and clean. Plus easier. Don't denigrate the silicone tubes...
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Chipotlemonger
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10:01p, 12/18/18
AG
Racked my Amber lager to secondary a while back, it's been lagering in my fridge for a couple weeks. I notice some buildup at the bottom. I accidentally pulled some of the trub up when racking due to a slip in my cane holding hand. Will this be a problem going forward? Should I rack again or let it ride? Just pondering.
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Ornlu
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In reply to Chipotlemonger • 5:54a, 12/19/18
AG
You'll lose that last little bit of sediment when kegging.
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G. hirsutum Ag
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In reply to Chipotlemonger • 6:28a, 12/19/18
AG
Don't you want/need some yeast to be present during the lagering process?
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G. hirsutum Ag
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In reply to Ornlu • 6:34a, 12/19/18
AG
My issue with the setup, at least the way that I'm understanding by studying the pictures, is that I would have to batch sparge instead of fly sparge. Not that big of a deal but I'd like to be able to fly sparge at some point. I also want to add a whirlpool port on the BK. Plus the ease of cam locks.

That long pipe along the front is the inlet line for the pump so if anything is disconnected I lose suction.

All minor stuff. But for what I'm getting it's a heck of a steal. Should be able to spend another 100-150 and finish it out properly with a second pump and new piping.

It's a 3 1/2 hour one way drive for me and will be fighting the holiday traffic on Monday. Totally worth it
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Chipotlemonger
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In reply to Ornlu • 8:11a, 12/19/18
AG
I guess my question is more of about what I've read regarding beer sitting too long on the primary yeast cake, and the negative effect of that. If I pulled out some of that trub from the primary on accident and it's down at the bottom of my secondary, will it potentially give off flavors as the beer lagers for this extended period?
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AlaskanAg99
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8:38a, 12/19/18
AG
It would need to rest a long time,Ike 6 months, and some of the bad stories come from professional brewing where the yeast is under a ton of weight from the beer. Not an issue for the most part in home brewing. I did lose a 10 gallon batch to autolysis but I left it on yeast for a year. I'm a big idot.

I wouldn't even rack to secondary for a clean beer, get theough primary then package.
aTm '99
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Ornlu
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10:00a, 12/19/18
AG
Oh, I didn't realize you were worried about autolysis. Don't be.

https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/DQXAk4DwuE/

That process will never start before 6 months. It is also highly mitigated by the cold lagering temps. It's accelerated by pressure, high alcohol, and high osmotic pressure. But the cold temp is the biggest factor.
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Ornlu
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9:48a, 12/20/18
AG
Have you made dark Belgian candi sugar/syrup before? I'm going to be doing that tomorrow, for a brew day on Saturday. I've done it twice, and have had decent results but didn't get as much of the fruit or roasted notes I was really looking for.

In looking over internet-knowledge about the subject, there seems to be a great divide in the ideology of how to make dark Belgian candi sugar.

Camp 1 says just use sugar+water+acid+heat+time. Hold it at 260F-275F until it reaches your desired color. This is the method I've previously used.

Camp 2 says that it's much more complicated. You also need a source of amino acids, like Diammonium Phosphate or unrefined beet sugar, and the mallaird reaction must occur under highly alkaline conditions. So you have to use a two phase process, where you boil the sugar+water+acid for a set time (20 minutes) in order to invert the glucose molecules, and then add the DAP and a base (like pickling lime or lye) in order to develop the desired Mallaird compounds. Ensure that the mixture has a pH of >10 and then roast it over lower temps, like 240F-250F. Sample the product every few minutes and stop when the desired flavor has been reached, regardless of color.

Camp 1 says camp 2 is foolishly over complicating it, and Camp 2 says camp 1 needs to go back to chemistry class.

Have any of you tried method 2?
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Moxie
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3:03p, 12/20/18
AG
How much do you need?

Option 3
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62strat
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3:05p, 12/20/18
AG
This guy did a lot of trial and error

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l81f0d4gliud919/homebrewtalk%20candi%20sugar.pdf


Another method
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3jx5ros51j336zh/Belgian%20Candi%20Sugar.pdf

I plan to do this in the future, haven't done it yet though. I have these saved for future reference.
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