I'm trying to find the data on pregnant women and covid and the real risk in terms of percentages hospitalized and fatalities. Obviously there are headlines of women dying but I'm trying to rule out anecdotal fear headlines.
Pregnant women and Covid
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Last: 3 yr ago by Cyp0111
I don't have any hard data.
We have had five pregnant women go on ECMO during this latest surge in my ICU. We have had several others on high flow nasal cannula that narrowly avoided intubation. All of the women were between 24 and 30 weeks. The age range of the women is 19 to 36 years old. They were all overweight but not dramatically so. Most were not diabetics. None vaccinated.
I think pregnancy is likely a risk factor for a severe disease but I am not sure how strong of a risk factor it is.
We have had five pregnant women go on ECMO during this latest surge in my ICU. We have had several others on high flow nasal cannula that narrowly avoided intubation. All of the women were between 24 and 30 weeks. The age range of the women is 19 to 36 years old. They were all overweight but not dramatically so. Most were not diabetics. None vaccinated.
I think pregnancy is likely a risk factor for a severe disease but I am not sure how strong of a risk factor it is.
Here are some results, albeit preliminary, that I saw on r/science a while ago
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2104983
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2104983
Quote:
Abstract
BACKGROUND
Many pregnant persons in the United States are receiving messenger RNA (mRNA) coronavirus disease 2019 (Covid-19) vaccines, but data are limited on their safety in pregnancy.
METHODS
From December 14, 2020, to February 28, 2021, we used data from the "v-safe after vaccination health checker" surveillance system, the v-safe pregnancy registry, and the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) to characterize the initial safety of mRNA Covid-19 vaccines in pregnant persons.
RESULTS
A total of 35,691 v-safe participants 16 to 54 years of age identified as pregnant. Injection-site pain was reported more frequently among pregnant persons than among nonpregnant women, whereas headache, myalgia, chills, and fever were reported less frequently. Among 3958 participants enrolled in the v-safe pregnancy registry, 827 had a completed pregnancy, of which 115 (13.9%) resulted in a pregnancy loss and 712 (86.1%) resulted in a live birth (mostly among participants with vaccination in the third trimester). Adverse neonatal outcomes included preterm birth (in 9.4%) and small size for gestational age (in 3.2%); no neonatal deaths were reported. Although not directly comparable, calculated proportions of adverse pregnancy and neonatal outcomes in persons vaccinated against Covid-19 who had a completed pregnancy were similar to incidences reported in studies involving pregnant women that were conducted before the Covid-19 pandemic. Among 221 pregnancy-related adverse events reported to the VAERS, the most frequently reported event was spontaneous abortion (46 cases).
CONCLUSIONS
Preliminary findings did not show obvious safety signals among pregnant persons who received mRNA Covid-19 vaccines. However, more longitudinal follow-up, including follow-up of large numbers of women vaccinated earlier in pregnancy, is necessary to inform maternal, pregnancy, and infant outcomes.
Contemplating getting the vaccine before pregnancy is a ****ty situation. Don't want to get covid but also don't know the full potential effects of a mRNA vaccine on pregnancy. The studies haven't been done. Plus still not FDA approved. Maybe we can wait it out until a traditional vaccine is developed. Isn't the novavax supposed to be a traditional vaccine?
Skillet Shot said:
Contemplating getting the vaccine before pregnancy is a ****ty situation. Don't want to get covid but also don't know the full potential effects of a mRNA vaccine on pregnancy. The studies haven't been done. Plus still not FDA approved. Maybe we can wait it out until a traditional vaccine is developed. Isn't the novavax supposed to be a traditional vaccine?
Isn't J&J a traditional vaccine?
J&J is a viral vector vaccine. It uses an adenovirus to deliver DNA to your cell, which makes your cell make the spike protein.
Pfizer and Moderna use fatty capsules to deliver mRNA to your cell, which makes your cell make the spike protein.
NovaVax uses bacteria and moth cells to make the spike protein, which they then inject into you along with a chemical made from soapbark trees that increases your immune response.
Pfizer and Moderna use fatty capsules to deliver mRNA to your cell, which makes your cell make the spike protein.
NovaVax uses bacteria and moth cells to make the spike protein, which they then inject into you along with a chemical made from soapbark trees that increases your immune response.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/08/11/cdc-covid-vaccine-doesnt-cause-miscarriages-pregnancy-data-shows/8095700002/Skillet Shot said:
Contemplating getting the vaccine before pregnancy is a ****ty situation. Don't want to get covid but also don't know the full potential effects of a mRNA vaccine on pregnancy. The studies haven't been done. Plus still not FDA approved. Maybe we can wait it out until a traditional vaccine is developed. Isn't the novavax supposed to be a traditional vaccine?
Quote:
Armed with research showing COVID-19 vaccines haven't been found to increase the risk of miscarriage, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention doubled down on recommendations Wednesday, urging all pregnant people to get vaccinated amid surging cases driven by the delta variant.
The agency had encouraged pregnant people to consider vaccination but had stopped short of a full recommendation. The new guidance applies to those who are nursing or planning to get pregnant.
A CDC analysis of safety data on 2,500 women showed no increased risks of miscarriage for those who received at least one dose of the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine before 20 weeks of pregnancy.
Miscarriages typically occur in 11%-16% of pregnancies. The study found miscarriage rates after receiving a COVID-19 vaccine were about 13%, which is within normal range.
It's tough to trust a recommendation based on science when the organization can't just say pregnant women and insist on pregnant people. I know it seems trivial. But it is a scientific and biologic certainty that biological women are the only sex capable of reproduction. If they are that susceptible to political pressures, it's difficult to trust their recommendation at face value.
Besides that, even with FDA approval for the general public, it often takes additional specific testing to get approval for pregnant women. This isn't even approved for the general population.
The lack of institutional trust really sucks. I think the vaccine makes sense for high risk. But I'm not convinced yet for pregnant women.
Besides that, even with FDA approval for the general public, it often takes additional specific testing to get approval for pregnant women. This isn't even approved for the general population.
The lack of institutional trust really sucks. I think the vaccine makes sense for high risk. But I'm not convinced yet for pregnant women.
The vaccines are approved for the general population. That's what an EUA is. They're just not fully approved which primarily means they can't market it to consumers.
Info on pregnant women is coming, hopefully soon.
https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-commence-global-clinical-trial-evaluate
Info on pregnant women is coming, hopefully soon.
https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-commence-global-clinical-trial-evaluate
I cant add much but I pray for women in your situation.
My wife and I are fortunate that we are just on the other side of the child bearing stage so not something that we had to layer on in our consideration.
I know several pregnant women that have gotten the shot (mostly moderna / pfizer) while pregnant and have had successful pregnancies and healthy babies. Anecdotal but we are around quite a few.
I get the lack of institutional trust. It is a shame it has gotten to this. Hopefully you have a doctor you trust and can rely on for their guidance in the coming days / weeks / months....
My wife and I are fortunate that we are just on the other side of the child bearing stage so not something that we had to layer on in our consideration.
I know several pregnant women that have gotten the shot (mostly moderna / pfizer) while pregnant and have had successful pregnancies and healthy babies. Anecdotal but we are around quite a few.
I get the lack of institutional trust. It is a shame it has gotten to this. Hopefully you have a doctor you trust and can rely on for their guidance in the coming days / weeks / months....
Skillet Shot said:
Contemplating getting the vaccine before pregnancy is a ****ty situation. Don't want to get covid but also don't know the full potential effects of a mRNA vaccine on pregnancy. The studies haven't been done. Plus still not FDA approved. Maybe we can wait it out until a traditional vaccine is developed. Isn't the novavax supposed to be a traditional vaccine?
There is little evidence that a vaccine will do anything to effect you before a pregnancy (other than make you feel crappy for a day or so). The is plenty of evidence that non-vaxxed covid can kick your ass and that would suck if you are pregnant or have an infant. I would either get vaxxed ASAP, or practice reasonable social distancing measures until baby is here.... except when making said baby
It doesn't make biochemical sense that those vaccines would do anything to a fetus or pregnancy but the data is still pending.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Wow, I completely missed that.Skillet Shot said:
It's tough to trust a recommendation based on science when the organization can't just say pregnant women and insist on pregnant people.
KidDoc said:
It doesn't make biochemical sense that those vaccines would do anything to a fetus or pregnancy but the data is still pending.
If the spike protein is being made in all parts of the body and circulated through all parts of the body, the potential concern is that the spike protein could interfere with baby development. But that's just a thought, I don't have the studies to back it up.
If that was the case we should see massive numbers of first term miscarriages in COVID + mothers. I am not an OB but I do not think that has been the case thus far.Skillet Shot said:KidDoc said:
It doesn't make biochemical sense that those vaccines would do anything to a fetus or pregnancy but the data is still pending.
If the spike protein is being made in all parts of the body and circulated through all parts of the body, the potential concern is that the spike protein could interfere with baby development. But that's just a thought, I don't have the studies to back it up.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
PJYoung said:Wow, I completely missed that.Skillet Shot said:
It's tough to trust a recommendation based on science when the organization can't just say pregnant women and insist on pregnant people.
1. Women are people
2. The word women is used numerous times on the related links from the CDC
Another Doug said:PJYoung said:Wow, I completely missed that.Skillet Shot said:
It's tough to trust a recommendation based on science when the organization can't just say pregnant women and insist on pregnant people.
1. Women are people
2. The word women is used numerous times on the related links from the CDC
The CDC used "pregnant people" 10 times..."pregnant women" 1 time...seems like the 1 time was an accident.
I think we can all agree it is technically correct to say "pregnant people"...but lets not get it twisted...they are trying to be overly sensitive for the pregnant trans-gendered....
who ****ing cares?
The spike protein definitely isn't made in all parts of the body when you get the vaccines. We know from distribution studies (see page 46 and 47 here but warning it's pretty dense) and history that what is injected into your shoulder muscle generally stays there. Some small amount goes into your lymphatic system and lymph nodes, and some small amount gets into your blood where it ends up in your liver (like its supposed to).Quote:
If the spike protein is being made in all parts of the body and circulated through all parts of the body, the potential concern is that the spike protein could interfere with baby development. But that's just a thought, I don't have the studies to back it up.
And even those small amounts of mRNA that end up in other places make spike proteins, but the spike does not circulate - it is made by the cell, and then stuck on the outside of the cell exactly like it is stuck on the outside of the virus. So it also isn't circulated throughout the body either.
Some does circulate in the blood around 15 days after the vaccination, probably when the cells that made it are killed off by your immune system.
The above is a paraphrase of good blog posts here, here and here.
Thanks. I just did a "find" and got 18 hits for "pregnant people" and 2 hits for "pregnant women" and 5 hits for "women"
edit: using the first link from your google.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/pregnant-people.html
edit: using the first link from your google.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/pregnant-people.html
the ironic part is you sound like a man with a hurt *****planoaggie123 said:
Thanks. I just did a "find" and got 18 hits for "pregnant people" and 2 hits for "pregnant women" and 5 hits for "women"
edit: using the first link from your google.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/pregnant-people.html
Another Doug said:the ironic part is you sound like a man with a hurt *****planoaggie123 said:
Thanks. I just did a "find" and got 18 hits for "pregnant people" and 2 hits for "pregnant women" and 5 hits for "women"
edit: using the first link from your google.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/pregnant-people.html
Personally I don't care.
The female on here posting said it caused her concern.
I can get it a bit....you want a straight shooting doctor providing guidance on such an important thing as getting shots while considering pregnancy....I would not want advice from a person or group that is more concerned about being politically correct vs scientifically correct.
Let's not sidetrack about pregnant people versus pregnant women. I know I brought it up. The main thing I was looking for are accurate hospitalization numbers so I can perform a risk assessment. Risk for a healthy 30 yo women is very low right now. A pregnant healthy 30 yo may have a slightly higher risk, but how much?
If I were you I'd be talking to my doctor about this.
If i was pregnant i'd get the Moderna vaccine.Skillet Shot said:
Let's not sidetrack about pregnant people versus pregnant women. I know I brought it up. The main thing I was looking for are accurate hospitalization numbers so I can perform a risk assessment. Risk for a healthy 30 yo women is very low right now. A pregnant healthy 30 yo may have a slightly higher risk, but how much?
I stayed at Holiday Inn and i'm not a physician.
I came here to ask the same thing. Just found out the wife is pregnant (our first!!) and unsure of what to do on the vaccination front.
It's a stressful situation trying to sift through all the data, reports and possible disinformation on either side
It's a stressful situation trying to sift through all the data, reports and possible disinformation on either side
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-021-00525-y.pdf?origin=ppubKidDoc said:
It doesn't make biochemical sense that those vaccines would do anything to a fetus or pregnancy but the data is still pending.
The concern was that the vaccines might be reacting with syncytin 1 and therefore damaging the placenta.
The more research we see, the less that this is likely, but it was an early concern. At this point, I think most people believe that this is probably not a real risk.
Super congratulations. What a joy.JW_TXAG13 said:
I came here to ask the same thing. Just found out the wife is pregnant (our first!!) and unsure of what to do on the vaccination front.
It's a stressful situation trying to sift through all the data, reports and possible disinformation on either side
On the best course of action, I honestly feel a little sorry for you there. Unfortunately, there is just so much propaganda out there its hard to find real information.
I would try to stick to the largest journals for your sources. Nature, Science, Cell, etc. It would be a fantastic research project for a graduate student to pull together the latest findings from the most reliable sources and summarize it. Wish I could help.
(Sorry, wrong emoji)
Are we supposed to believe a gov agency that uses the term "pregnant people" cares more about science than public messaging and politics?
Much appreciated! Extremely excited.
One of those deals where normally we wouldn't get the vaccine but can understand the risks with pregnancy and a baby.
Just feels like there's not enough data or facts on either side to feel good about a decision either way
One of those deals where normally we wouldn't get the vaccine but can understand the risks with pregnancy and a baby.
Just feels like there's not enough data or facts on either side to feel good about a decision either way
Every vaccine (that isn't alive) includes something called an adjuvant that causes tissue damage. The adjuvant is needed to get the immune system to wake up. The principle behind an mRNA vaccine isn't worrying to me; it's the same as if the virus was infecting you and expressing the RNA itself. With the vaccine, the RNA is making one protein, not a whole virus, so the RNA cannot spread itself from cell to cell safe. What is less understood is any possible effect of the mRNA packaging, which is lipid (nano)particles. That packaging supposedly serves as the adjuvant. Possible effects of the lipids are more of an unknown than is the RNA. No long term data available.
Edited for things I'm not 100% confident in. However, the above is a short excerpt pasted from an email received by me from a well-tenured tea-sip PhD molecular biologist.
Edited for things I'm not 100% confident in. However, the above is a short excerpt pasted from an email received by me from a well-tenured tea-sip PhD molecular biologist.
KidDoc said:
It doesn't make biochemical sense that those vaccines would do anything to a fetus or pregnancy but the data is still pending.
Thank you for saying this in those words. I've wanted to say it exactly like that many times, but I'm not a doctor and didn't feel I had the "credibility" to say it. But anyone with a working knowledge of biochemistry should have known/understood that about the vaccine from day 1.
Any doctor who calls vaccines "needle rape" and "clot shots" is a disgrace. In that presentation you linked, he discussed the Japanese study that circulated months ago before finally being debunked because a) it was on rates and b) the rats were injected with 100s of times more spike protein than you would ever receive from a vaccine.
He talks about "science" but he is the worst kind of "scientist" because he is twisting and misrepresenting data to instill fear and spread conspiracy theories, all while patting his own back for being some sort of brave whistleblower. This guy is a fraud.
He talks about "science" but he is the worst kind of "scientist" because he is twisting and misrepresenting data to instill fear and spread conspiracy theories, all while patting his own back for being some sort of brave whistleblower. This guy is a fraud.
I don't think the lipids serve as an adjuvant in the mRNA vaccines. They might be, I just haven't seen anything that says they are. They protect the mRNA and help it enter the cell.
I also don't think it is correct to say that adjuvants cause tissue damage. I think they work by "looking like" things your body recognizes as immune threats. Do you have any reference for that?
The lipids also aren't new. Specific to this area of research lipids have been investigated in this use going back to at least 2010, including human trials.
Can you share the Pfizer report you're referencing? You're saying that's during testing of the lipids?
I also don't think it is correct to say that adjuvants cause tissue damage. I think they work by "looking like" things your body recognizes as immune threats. Do you have any reference for that?
The lipids also aren't new. Specific to this area of research lipids have been investigated in this use going back to at least 2010, including human trials.
Can you share the Pfizer report you're referencing? You're saying that's during testing of the lipids?
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