I know there has been multiple threads on masks, different links to many studies, etc... But I am wondering, what is the general feeling on this forum about masks?

My (admittedly mostly uneducated) opinion on them is, I'll wear them if a business asks me to, but I am also totally fine not wearing one, and think that the obsession with masks is more about virtue signaling than science based decisions. Particularly I'm thinking of instances such as how people want me to wear a mask inside even if I am not within 10 feet of anyone, such as sitting in a church pew when there is no one even close to me.

Thoughts?

At this point, my strongest endorsement is that they can't hurt.

If I am going to be in a crowd of people for a while or going into a business, I'll wear one. That's it, though.

I run a nursing home. We have had 6 positive employees over the last 6 months. Every one of them had contact prior to testing with up to 20 residents. Everyone wears an n95.

These are people with suppressed immune systems, frail, ill and generally not healthy.

So far, ZERO residents have been infected. I believe they work, when worn correctly.

My thought is that 9 months in we are still flailing around trying to figure out what works. This shouldn't really be a surprise. Every other disease you've heard of has been studied for decades.

All the experts say they help, and it's hard to see how they could hurt. But 2020 is the ****ing worst, so here we are. I don't like them, but I expect them to be required until sometime next spring.

For individual encounters it may have some efficacy. The mechanics are such that a virus can reside within respiratory droplets which can be expelled while talking, coughing, etc... A mask (depending on the type) can block a certain percentage which theoretically reduces the odds of catching the virus. If I were to walk into a room with a known COVID positive patient and my choices were 1) we both wear masks or 2) neither wears a mask, then I am choosing option 1.

However the efficacy of society wide mask wearing is very much in question. You aren't going to find much in the way of RCTs or even real world data that proves its efficacy. There are likely a number of factors behind this. The virus can be aerosolized for instance in which case a simple cloth mask will not help. Also people don't generally wear masks when gathering with friends or family, this allows networks for the virus to continually propagate regardless of mandates.

I think if masks were sold as a "best effort" practice instead of "THE SCIENCE" I would have less of a problem with it.

Last two posts are spot on.

Little risk- potential benefit from a population level.

There is no doubt N95 work if fitted. I think people believe non N95 masks work better than they actually do and it can give a false sense of security.

The best evidence that they help with COVID is data from ships and packing plants. COVID seems to have more of a "dose effect" than other respiratory pathogens. As with most things COVID, ZdoggMD is right on let me find his episode on masks.

can't hurt

might help

cheap and available

probably should keep at it through this winter, you always want runway

mask virtue signaling is stupid

I am mask compliant.

But I am very concerned that we are seeing a pivot toward this being the 'new normal': I have seen comments like:
- 'look out here comes the flu';
-'masks protect all from all viruses'

Short term, while we got a handle on this, ok.

Long term, as a cultural shift, NO.

Long term harmful effects of isolation and mask wearing are just beginning to be noticed and will continue, and will ultimately be as bad or worse if this isn't temporary.

also I do think there's something to viral load and severity and I think there's something to masking and viral load mitigation (not spread per se in absolute terms, but load in exposure)

plus masking helps as a reminder to distancing which helps with load exposure

they have utility in my opinion and they are CHEAP

people who make the claim "we can never go back" are actively hurting public health messaging

they are the worst

I haven't seen any evidence in public of masking reminding people to distance. In fact, I daily see evidence of the opposite. People think that masks are completely effective and tend to completely ignore social distancing.

AggieSarah01 said:

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I haven't seen any evidence in public of masking reminding people to distance. In fact, I daily see evidence of the opposite. People think that masks are completely effective and tend to completely ignore social distancing.

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That's also part of the rationale as to why Sweden didn't encourage masks, but did encourage distancing. Cheap masks offer a false sense of security, and then people have to get closer to talk due to muffled sound and lack of lips to read, which negates the purpose of the mask.

So many times I have seen people take off their masks to talk, and then put them back on.

let me put it this way

reminds you there's still a pandemic happening

which there is

reminds me to keep my distance but as you point out ymmv

Mask mandate = unconstitutional BS.

Masks dehumanize us. In a time when we should be empathizing with others, masks incline us to do the opposite.

Squadron7 said:

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At this point, my strongest endorsement is that they can't hurt.

If I am going to be in a crowd of people for a while or going into a business, I'll wear one. That's it, though.

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Disagree. My kid's school is seeing a spike in strep that our pedi claims is due to the kids wearing masks all day.

chjoak said:

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Squadron7 said:

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At this point, my strongest endorsement is that they can't hurt.

If I am going to be in a crowd of people for a while or going into a business, I'll wear one. That's it, though.

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Disagree. My kid's school is seeing a spike in strep that our pedi claims is due to the kids wearing masks all day.

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Yep

I have also heard dentists are seeing more gum disease due to the masks.

Talking with my kids doctor he says they have seen a huge spike in regular colds and strep. His view is mask do more harm than good for children. Just asked a friend who is a dentist and they have seen more gum disease but they have not looked at enough to see if this is a backlog or something external like mask.

Masks are theater with no efficacy as to disease transmission/viral load at all. They are demanded as tribute, by the rulers/aristocracy, to be worn by the plebes/serfs as symbols of their subservience. That is all.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/

"What literature that is available on the subject tends to be dated with poorly explained methodology. There is also uncertainty over whether the results of such studies can be extrapolated to current surgical practice given the advent of new antiseptic techniques since they were completed. The evidence base investigating the effects of facemask usage on patient-based outcomes is, in general, more extensive than that of surgeon-centred outcomes. Facemasks do have a clear role in maintaining the social cleanliness of surgical staff, but evidence is lacking to suggest that they confer protection from infection either to patients or to the surgeons that wear them."


studies of the general population...

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

"Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza."

Seems the Dutch agreed.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2020/08/01/dutch-officials-adamant-about-lack-of-mask-efficacy-in-preventing-coronavirus-transmission/

"Dutch public health officials and the national government are unbending with respect to what they consider to be lack of scientific evidence on the efficacy of non-medical masks in limiting the spread of the novel coronavirus. On Wednesday, July 29th, at a press conference, officials maintained the line they've adopted since March: "There's no scientific evidence for the efficacy of non-medical masks.""

nortex97 said:

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Masks are theater with no efficacy as to disease transmission/viral load at all. They are demanded as tribute, by the rulers/aristocracy, to be worn by the plebes/serfs as symbols of their subservience. That is all.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/

"What literature that is available on the subject tends to be dated with poorly explained methodology. There is also uncertainty over whether the results of such studies can be extrapolated to current surgical practice given the advent of new antiseptic techniques since they were completed. The evidence base investigating the effects of facemask usage on patient-based outcomes is, in general, more extensive than that of surgeon-centred outcomes. Facemasks do have a clear role in maintaining the social cleanliness of surgical staff, but evidence is lacking to suggest that they confer protection from infection either to patients or to the surgeons that wear them."


studies of the general population...

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

"Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza."

Seems the Dutch agreed.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2020/08/01/dutch-officials-adamant-about-lack-of-mask-efficacy-in-preventing-coronavirus-transmission/

"Dutch public health officials and the national government are unbending with respect to what they consider to be lack of scientific evidence on the efficacy of non-medical masks in limiting the spread of the novel coronavirus. On Wednesday, July 29th, at a press conference, officials maintained the line they've adopted since March: "There's no scientific evidence for the efficacy of non-medical masks.""

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I can only base the mask efficacy on my own experiences. I've been back in the office since May. Early on after the reopening, very few people were wearing masks at my company (several hundred employees in an office setting). We had several covid cases pop up at work. Once the mask mandate in Dallas County started everyone began wearing masks to work. Since then, not one Covid case in our office. Our company has employees of all age ranges, ethnicities, economic groups, different living situations, singles/married, etc. So, a very broad group of people. We have both private offices and also several floors with large numbers of workers in cubicles. So, in my experience, masks have helped stop the spread at my workplace. I wear single use surgical masks from a company that makes them in Austin area.

As I posted on another thread,

"There are currently no studies that have evaluated the effectiveness and potential adverse effects of universal or targeted continuous mask use by health workers in preventing transmission of SARS-CoV-2"

W.H.O. June 5, 2020 Interim Guidance

The next question, if I'm Covid recovered, why do I have to wear a mask?
And if I can get the same Covid again, how do we expect a vaccine to work?

I'm in the "doesn't hurt" camp and generally have no problem wearing them but like anything it's situationally dependent. Provided the option of being in a crowded place or grocery store with or without one I lean towards having one for now, but it's nonsensical to wear one to go jogging or biking.

My own observation after travelling to several different states over the last few months is the wide variation in local practices on mask wearing affects how intrusive they are or aren't and I'm guessing flavors local attitudes.

• In Houston, Dallas and College Station we have relatively lax policies - mask up indoors and in common areas. Not that intrusive but annoying to take on/off walking 20 feet to go in and out of a space.
• Colorado, New Mexico, New York - if you're outside at all, the majority of people are wearing masks all the time. Seemed excessive in all but NYC, but the surprising thing I also started to notice was how many more older people there were out and about in the general public versus Texas.
• Florida panhandle, Alabama, Mississippi - not even trying (circa June). Wait staff and those who's work puts them in high traffic were the only ones wearing. It actually felt more uncomfortable to be out in that environ than walking through a crowded sidewalk in NY.

Ultimately if they have any value on a society-wide scale it's in the visual reminder to space out and maybe reduce the efficacy of super spreaders. I fully expect that they will remain status quo until after the end of this coming flu season and into next Spring.

88planoAg said:

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Long term, as a cultural shift, NO.

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The long term, cultural shift I wouldn't mind seeing is people wearing a mask when they are sick. From everything I've read, the main benefit of masks is for other's benefit, not your own (ie, it blocks your germs more than it blocks others). In a lot of Asian countries this is fairly normal, and I don't see the big deal. It seems polite.

Also, even if your employer doesn't allow full time work from home going forward, they should allow people to work from home when they aren't feeling well.

AustinAg2K said:

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88planoAg said:

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Long term, as a cultural shift, NO.

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The long term, cultural shift I wouldn't mind seeing is people wearing a mask when they are sick. From everything I've read, the main benefit of masks is for other's benefit, not your own (ie, it blocks your germs more than it blocks others). In a lot of Asian countries this is fairly normal, and I don't see the big deal. It seems polite.

Also, even if your employer doesn't allow full time work from home going forward, they should allow people to work from home when they aren't feeling well.

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We also need a culture shift in the medical world where we are teased, punished or chastised if we call in sick.

KidDoc said:

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AustinAg2K said:

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88planoAg said:

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Long term, as a cultural shift, NO.

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The long term, cultural shift I wouldn't mind seeing is people wearing a mask when they are sick. From everything I've read, the main benefit of masks is for other's benefit, not your own (ie, it blocks your germs more than it blocks others). In a lot of Asian countries this is fairly normal, and I don't see the big deal. It seems polite.

Also, even if your employer doesn't allow full time work from home going forward, they should allow people to work from home when they aren't feeling well.

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We also need a culture shift in the medical world where we are teased, punished or chastised if we call in sick.

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I have missed one day of work for being sick since 1977. Got Campylobacter from a cancer patient while on call as an intern. Still made it through the night so I would not have to take another call night. Even with bloody diarrhea.

Dr. Lane Gentry, the ID at Ben Taub, wanted to admit me but I refused and he took down to his little office in the Ben Taub basement and gave me ten 500mg Tetercycline and told me to take them and go home. Learned up in half a day and only missed one day of work.

Mask quality varies greatly.
Proper wearing of masks varies greatly.
Discipline to not constantly touch or adjust a mask varies greatly
Situational need for mask wearing varies greatly.

Conclusion - there is no one size fits all answer, but a little common sense can go a long way.

In a nursing home - wear a mask.
Walking from the door at a restaurant to your table - seriously, everyone knows this pointless.

Purely anecdotal here and probably no scientific logic or reasoning.

Our facility in Mexico went into emergency/911 production on isolation gowns in early April and has continued on throughout the deal. We put precautions into place as best an upper end sweat shop can. But one thing we did was go open air with no A/C, had doors open, windows open and a sheet ton of ceiling and wall fans going. This was on the advice of a Mexican doc who oversaw our safety "plan". Out of about 80 people we only had 4 confirmed cases, well 5 if I include myself due to wifa being positive, and 2 others that basically had to be positive but never could get a test.

Another facility down the road from us went into 911/Emergency mode making cloth masks out of an upper end knit fabric where a N-95 insert could be put into them at about the same time. They were doing these for the auto industry to get their plants back open. They had about 150 people doing this.

We gave them iso gowns and they gave us masks (we made some of our own too). But they stayed air conditioned, that facility and their "safety procedures" were more heavy duty than ours. They had all their employees wear iso gowns and face covering plus masks. We just wore civves and sweated our asses off.

Out of 140 employees they had 25+ confirmed positives. Much higher ratio than we did, and their spread lasted like 3 months starting in June and going through the end of August, ours were all in a 2-3 week period in July/Early August.

Same population base, same demographic, same communities, same etc.

Thus, I don't know how much masks work and don't work, but I feel pretty good about open air environments not being all that conducive to the spread.