Post Reply
1 of 1
Chemical Plant In Danger Of Exploding Near Crosby Tx
3,842 Views |
27 Replies |
Last: 7 yr ago by Ag_07
Is this a real threat? Are they just being cautious?
No idea but thought people in Crosby might need to know.
I agree and passed it along to my family in the area. Just trying to understand the timing. It looks like there was concern about this yesterday, just wondering if the situation got worse.
I heard stories of things like this happening 30+ years ago before so much advancement in safety.
Most communities around plants have emergency channels/warning systems for things like this. I couldn't find the info for Crosby so someone else may know.
Regardless, I would listen to what they say as they know the worse case and area of impact. This potential exists and I don't doubt that they are doing everything possible to minimize the impact if they cannot stop it.
Most communities around plants have emergency channels/warning systems for things like this. I couldn't find the info for Crosby so someone else may know.
Regardless, I would listen to what they say as they know the worse case and area of impact. This potential exists and I don't doubt that they are doing everything possible to minimize the impact if they cannot stop it.
These are the situations where OSHA/EPA contribute to society. This should be their main focus instead of their power grabs to control all the water and carbon in the USA.
Plant appears to be outside of town but right off 90, seems like this would be getting more publication if this was as bad as their CEO admitted.
It's a peroxide plant from ARKEMA. Serious stuff.
Yep, peroxides are highly unstable and can explode. Even very small quantities can cause significant damage. Being a production facility, I hate to think how much inventory they have on hand.
The linked article makes it sound pretty bad. They need refrigeration to keep the chemicals stable, but it sounds like they have lost all means of providing said cooling. I don't know how they effect repairs / move the chemicals knowing the uncontrolled risk of the chemicals exploding.
If the volumes on hand aren't too great, the damage from an explosion might be largely contained to the facility itself. Being located far from a population center is a good thing for this facility. Evacuating everyone is out of caution, but sounds like a good measure to guarantee preservation of life.
The linked article makes it sound pretty bad. They need refrigeration to keep the chemicals stable, but it sounds like they have lost all means of providing said cooling. I don't know how they effect repairs / move the chemicals knowing the uncontrolled risk of the chemicals exploding.
If the volumes on hand aren't too great, the damage from an explosion might be largely contained to the facility itself. Being located far from a population center is a good thing for this facility. Evacuating everyone is out of caution, but sounds like a good measure to guarantee preservation of life.
Would this have an envrionmental impact?N8Dawg05 said:
Yep, peroxides are highly unstable and can explode. Even very small quantities can cause significant damage. Being a production facility, I hate to think how much inventory they have on hand.
The linked article makes it sound pretty bad. They need refrigeration to keep the chemicals stable, but it sounds like they have lost all means of providing said cooling. I don't know how they effect repairs / move the chemicals knowing the uncontrolled risk of the chemicals exploding.
If the volumes on hand aren't too great, the damage from an explosion might be largely contained to the facility itself. Being located far from a population center is a good thing for this facility. Evacuating everyone is out of caution, but sounds like a good measure to guarantee preservation of life.
Honestly I don't know. My experience is centered around knowing the hazards of chemicals like peroxides and preventing things like this from happening. Harvey is an unprecedented situation even for plant operators. It looks like this plant has lost at least three layers of refrigeration systems based on what is in the news articles from a common cause scenario that I doubt anyone would have thought was credible. There may not be any history of flooding anywhere close to what they are currently experiencing and I have yet to see any hydrometeorlogical data that comes anywhere close to covering what happened over the weekend (100 yr probability NOAA charts for a 4 day precip event top out at less than 20", we've seen double that and in some cases nearly triple).
If I had to guess, the direct environmental impact from an explosion is likely to be fairly minimal. A large portion of the chemicals involved in the explosion will combust. Combustion byproducts may not be the greatest thing, but generally present a much smaller hazard than the parent chemicals. The damage caused by the explosion could have greater impacts. Say for example from rupturing storage tanks. This would be my immediate concern from an environmental standpoint.
Looking at satellite photos, this site is relatively small in size IMHO. I would by no means consider this a giant chemical plant as some media outlets are claiming, look at one of the refineries around town for reference to a giant chemical plant. Hopefully this limits total volumes of chemicals present and thereby contains most impacts to the immediate site.
It won't be great, but the company is taking a steps to keep their employees and the public safe. We can work to remediate our impact on the environment. That remediation may not be perfect, but it's a lot better than our ability to bring back lives that could be lost in this situation.
If I had to guess, the direct environmental impact from an explosion is likely to be fairly minimal. A large portion of the chemicals involved in the explosion will combust. Combustion byproducts may not be the greatest thing, but generally present a much smaller hazard than the parent chemicals. The damage caused by the explosion could have greater impacts. Say for example from rupturing storage tanks. This would be my immediate concern from an environmental standpoint.
Looking at satellite photos, this site is relatively small in size IMHO. I would by no means consider this a giant chemical plant as some media outlets are claiming, look at one of the refineries around town for reference to a giant chemical plant. Hopefully this limits total volumes of chemicals present and thereby contains most impacts to the immediate site.
It won't be great, but the company is taking a steps to keep their employees and the public safe. We can work to remediate our impact on the environment. That remediation may not be perfect, but it's a lot better than our ability to bring back lives that could be lost in this situation.
Typically what you get from combustion is H2O and CO2. Maybe some CO or sulfur dioxide or nitrogen oxides, too, depending on what compounds are present. The idea behind combustion is that it takes more complex chemicals and breaks them down to the most basic compounds (this is why refineries and chemical plants have flares).
The bigger issue is the force of any explosion that may damage surrounding equipment that might store other chemicals (that may or may not be hazardous in their own right). Or the damage from a fire that spreads before it is controlled.
The bigger issue is the force of any explosion that may damage surrounding equipment that might store other chemicals (that may or may not be hazardous in their own right). Or the damage from a fire that spreads before it is controlled.
Per Operator Group on FB.
Real Arkema Update: (thank God!): Arkema had a representative from Pennsylvania corporate office call me. She talked to me for 20 minutes and answered most of my questions. There are some that are still outstanding. Here's what I learned directly from Arkema:
1. There are several refrigeration units. Refrigeration failed on units one by one beginning last night. Some have been without refrigeration for almost 24 hours. Some are still refrigerated. For those that have already failed, there is no way to know how far they have degraded, and thus no way to know when they will ignite. It could happen soon, or up to 6 days from now. Because they do not know when the ignition will happen, there will be NO ATTEMPTS to reenter the plant to try and restore refrigeration.
2. They are keeping personnel far from the site. There won't be a "controlled burn" in the traditional sense. They are simply relying on the acceleration properties of the chemicals to aid them in consuming themselves before the fire gets to other parts of the plant.
3. When I asked Arkema which MSDS product sheets we need to look at for what's onsite, she pointed me to the LUPEROX line. You can find the MSDS sheets on the companies' site. When I asked about the ammonia substances, the answer was (again) a very timid, [paraphrasing] 'I can't tell you that because...well, I don't know.' They are supposed to follow up on this issue with me tonight or in the morning. The link for the LUPEROX line MSDS sheets is here: http://www.quickfds.com/cmt_bin/wfds-rechfds?NSoc=1234&NCli=Jane+Doe&EMai=JaneDoe%40gmail.com&View=Pdf&Lang=EN&NFou=ATO%C2%A7US_PI.EN&CCli=&NPro=luperox
4. The chemicals will smolder white at first. They will then ignite and burn black like a gas fire. Eye, skin, and nose irritation should be expected.
5. There could be an explosion. The concussion should not cause property damage beyond the 1.5 mile evacuation radius. The radius is, in their opinion, "conservative." They don't expect damage outside the plant.
6. They do not have air, water, or soil contamination scenarios yet. I have asked them to put those scenarios together and disclose what the contamination potential is, what can be done to avoid contaminated substances, and what symptoms to look out for to recognize contamination.
7. There will be a Q&A about the Crosby site available on the website (supposedly) soon. The "help" line is still running, but they are really just taking questions. If you still want to call, the number is 1-877-4Arkema.
Hope this helps. Stay safe
Real Arkema Update: (thank God!): Arkema had a representative from Pennsylvania corporate office call me. She talked to me for 20 minutes and answered most of my questions. There are some that are still outstanding. Here's what I learned directly from Arkema:
1. There are several refrigeration units. Refrigeration failed on units one by one beginning last night. Some have been without refrigeration for almost 24 hours. Some are still refrigerated. For those that have already failed, there is no way to know how far they have degraded, and thus no way to know when they will ignite. It could happen soon, or up to 6 days from now. Because they do not know when the ignition will happen, there will be NO ATTEMPTS to reenter the plant to try and restore refrigeration.
2. They are keeping personnel far from the site. There won't be a "controlled burn" in the traditional sense. They are simply relying on the acceleration properties of the chemicals to aid them in consuming themselves before the fire gets to other parts of the plant.
3. When I asked Arkema which MSDS product sheets we need to look at for what's onsite, she pointed me to the LUPEROX line. You can find the MSDS sheets on the companies' site. When I asked about the ammonia substances, the answer was (again) a very timid, [paraphrasing] 'I can't tell you that because...well, I don't know.' They are supposed to follow up on this issue with me tonight or in the morning. The link for the LUPEROX line MSDS sheets is here: http://www.quickfds.com/cmt_bin/wfds-rechfds?NSoc=1234&NCli=Jane+Doe&EMai=JaneDoe%40gmail.com&View=Pdf&Lang=EN&NFou=ATO%C2%A7US_PI.EN&CCli=&NPro=luperox
4. The chemicals will smolder white at first. They will then ignite and burn black like a gas fire. Eye, skin, and nose irritation should be expected.
5. There could be an explosion. The concussion should not cause property damage beyond the 1.5 mile evacuation radius. The radius is, in their opinion, "conservative." They don't expect damage outside the plant.
6. They do not have air, water, or soil contamination scenarios yet. I have asked them to put those scenarios together and disclose what the contamination potential is, what can be done to avoid contaminated substances, and what symptoms to look out for to recognize contamination.
7. There will be a Q&A about the Crosby site available on the website (supposedly) soon. The "help" line is still running, but they are really just taking questions. If you still want to call, the number is 1-877-4Arkema.
Hope this helps. Stay safe
https://www.icis.com/resources/news/2017/08/30/10138192/explosion-concerns-prompt-evacuation-around-arkema-plant-in-texas/
"Among other organic peroxides, Arkema produces at its Crosby plant plastic resins, polystyrene(PS), polyethylene (PE), polypropylene (PP), polyvinyl chloride (PVC) and polyester reinforced fibreglass, as well as acrylic resin."
"Among other organic peroxides, Arkema produces at its Crosby plant plastic resins, polystyrene(PS), polyethylene (PE), polypropylene (PP), polyvinyl chloride (PVC) and polyester reinforced fibreglass, as well as acrylic resin."
Sorry, I'm ignorant, can they not send in robots to do anything?
just blew up
it would be very difficult to send in a robot to hook up a generator and start up a system like that i think.
i would bet that this is a PSM and RMP facility based on what it sounds like they process and quantities. i'm sure we will see in the coming days or weeks how well they were following PSM requirements.
So much for the 6 days
Its not over yet. Probably have explosions and reactions for days.culdeus said:
So much for the 6 days
Facility is still inundated with water according to reports. Probably not many options that can deal with that, especially on such short notice.
those really weren't definitive numbers. that was their best guess, all they really knew is that they had a system with no way to control the refrigeration to keep the chemical reactions under control. sooner or later something was going to happen.
I just read the MSDS. The temperature triggering a decomposition reaction leading to fire and explosion, was 84F for a 35lb container. A larger container would react at an even lower temp. With no refrigeration, it was only a matter of (very short) time.
Watching this press conference now...This is a grade a shlt show.
Seems like Arkema and local authorities are giving different info.
Seems like Arkema and local authorities are giving different info.
I havent been following this much, but these reporters are hammering this guy
Vampires have more humanity than reporters
What channel?
GCP12 said:
I havent been following this much, but these reporters are hammering this guy
I got the sense that Arkema is being pretty shady and not really giving much info. If there's a time to grill someone it's now.