http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/lopez/4865620.html

When you win a National Championship everybody starts questioning your tactics. Rice had developed an outstanding program. I know the odds are against us but I hope we make a great showing this weekend. I was taliing to a friend of mine and playing Rice at Rice in baseball is probably equivalent to a +7 point spread in Football against OU at OU.

Gus was the worst at mismanaging pitchers

Ask Shane Reynolds

Roger Clemens turned out all right.

That's always been a knock against Wayne Graham - he leaves his pitchers in too long/over works them. I don't know if that will be an issue this weekend, though, because it sounds like they're pretty deep pitching wise.

that article in the Chronicle is leaving out other critical information

It has not just been the 3 pitchers from Rice's 2003/2004 teams, but also 2 starting pitchers from the Owls' 2001 team that had injuries right after they were drafted, one who was a 1st round draft pick

the Houston media has seemingly always used kid gloves with the Rice program and follow on effects to their pitchers

Just about every program has burned up pitchers in the past 10-15 years, but to have 5 high-caliber arms in a 3-year span is a very poor track record.

Now the silver lining is that for the current Rice pitching staff, they will benefit from the lessons learned in the past years, as Lopez's column indicates.

Shane Reynolds? I guess I need an explanation on this one.

to be fair though, Shane Reynolds had a 10-year major league career and won 114 big league games, so he was able to overcome what happened to him at Texas.

it's looking rather doubtful that any of those 5 Rice pitchers aforementioned are going to have a 10-year career. Hopefully they can all make a comeback and do it.

I'm a little ignorant on this one but was Rice short of several players at the beginning of the season or what? A&M beat them twice in Houston so why are we billed as the big underdog? I can understand Rice being favored, but is the gap really that big?

Rice didn't have their closer earlier in the year, and I think their ace was on a pitch count in the first meeting.

You also omit some fairly important facts:

(1) All pitchers have problems, sometime, somehow. Example: of the top 10 pitchers taken in the 2004 draft, 8 of them have missed significant time due to injury since being drafted or are currently on the DL. That's over a 3 year period -- 80%.

(2) The reason Rice has more highly sought pitchers having problems is because Rice has more highly sought pitchers. It's simple math.

(3) Major league clubs' farm systems have a bad habit of forcing to fit a mold of mechanics that they think is universal. But in reality, pitchers are different, their bodies are different, and their mechanics, necessarily need to be different. One should certainly wonder why so many pitchers end up getting hurt in their first 3-5 years after going pro. You'll often hear of a club that has had some "bad luck" with 1st-3rd round draft picks who have to have TJ surgery after just a season in the organization. Yet you never hear the baseball media clamoring for the head of the single-A pitching coach on a platter. Why do you think that is? Possibly because being shut out by a major league club is much worse than buying the clubs BS about "Oh, that last coach sent us a bill of goods."

(4) Why is it that the pro clubs waste so much time negotiating over $500k for someone they obviously wanted enough to take in the top 5 picks of the draft when they're willing to pay an average player $10mln a year? Everybody knows time off from pitching is hard to come back from. It should be worth that just to get the guys on the field and throwing the ball. At least now the MLB has addressed some of the ridiculousness here with the new August 15 signing deadline.

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Roger Clemens turned out all right.

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Roger Clemens was only at tu for one year. And anybody that enjoys the longevity he's had probably has something in his genetics that helped him overcome being overworked by Gus.

quote:

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Yet you never hear the baseball media clamoring for the head of the single-A pitching coach on a platter. Why do you think that is?"

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Maybe it's because Niemann never threw a minor league pitch before he needed surgery and Townsend threw less than 40 innings before he needed it?

Actually, he was at UT for 2 years, but that's beside the point since Graham didn't coach at UT, he coached at San Jacinto JuCo, where Clemens was for 1 year. Pettitte also pitched at SJJC for a year.

I remember thinking Kenny Baugh must of had arms he could unscrew and put new ones on as much as Wayne threw him...

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"HOW CAN YOU NOT KNOW TUCKER! HOW CAN YOU NOT KNOW!!! - Ron Franklin

"HOW CAN YOU NOT KNOW FRAN! HOW CAN YOU NOT KNOW!!! - AW 1880

Clemens also had major arm surgery early in his pro career.

Yup, Clemens went under the knife somewhere around 1984/1985. He broke out and became the dominant pitcher he is in 1986, after he had healed up.

Besides, Clemens was not the ace of the staff when they won it all in '83. That was Calvin Schiraldi.

Tex

Keishnick (sp) (pitched almost every friday and relief on sunday)
Dressendorfer (same as brooks)
Reynolds (even though he had a good pro career, he is very critical of the way pitchers were handled at Tex)

Many others treated the same way

Okay, but it was not me talking about Gus, it was just you and the other guys.

[This message has been edited by texd (edited 6/6/2007 9:26p).]

Thanks texd, I was talking about Clemens playing for Graham at San Jac. I've read that Graham taught him how to pitch.

In the last SWC preseason tournament I was at a Rice vs. Tech game. Graham took a pitcher out who must have smarted off and Graham gave it to him in the dugout. All the Tech fans were saying lay off the kid. I thought, I bet he knows what he's doing.

NYC AG

Graham was my HS coach and worked out at the Downtown "Y" in Houston, where my mom worked at the time. Graham and my mom had the following conversation in June 1981.

Graham said, "Julie, your son should have accepted my offer and played for me at San Jac. I've got another kid built about like Jeff that I helped put 9 mph on his fastball this year. He got a scholarship and is playing at t.u. next year." We all know the rest of the Clemens story.

He was not necessarily a "stud" coming out of high school, either. His Junior Year at Spring Woods, he was only the 3rd pitcher, behind Rick Leucken (TAMU) and Raynor Noble (Cougar high). His Sr. Year his team did not even win district - therefore NO PLAYOFFS (unlike today's crap where about 1/2 of the teams are in the playoffs).

So, in review, I would say resoundingly "YES" - that Graham's one year with Clemens was rather magical for Roger.

Interesting Trivia question - who won district over Spring Woods that year (1980) and who was their coach??

Raynor Noble and Luecken are older then Clemens.


Nice story but it is not true

FYI Noble graduated in 1979

And if you are refering to the 1979 Team that beat Spring Woods, that would be Spring. They were the 1979 4A State Champs

Rock For Brains - (What an appropriate name after your TOTALLY uninformed replies)

Please re-read and save your stupid and snide comments for something that you might have a clue about. Clemens was a Junior in 1979. Noble and Leucken were Seniors in 1979. I'll type V-E-R-Y S-L-O-W-L-Y so that maybe you can have time to read, and comprehend. Clemens was a distant 3rd pitcher on the team in 1979, behind Leucken and Noble. You are correct - Spring DID win State in 1979. They won it behind Mike Caple (P) and Kenny Crafton (OF) as their 2 best players. Caple went to t.u. and remains one of Clemens' best friends to this day. Crafton went to TCU. I don't know, but he might have died because there is some type of Kenny Crafton Memorial Tournament in Spring. Capel is a Sales Manager at a car dealership out here in Katy, by my house. However, Spring was in Region II - District 16 4A (next to last year for 4A instead of 5A). Almost all of the Houston area schools are/were? in Region III (Districts 17-24). I do not remember where Spring Woods ended up in the 1979 Playoffs, to be honest. In 1980, Pearland won State and beat us in the Quarterfinals (final 8 teams in the state), after we beat Spring Branch and Graham in the 2nd round of the playoffs. I know because I pitched the 1st and 3rd games that we won against Spring Branch.

Clemens' Senior Year at Spring Woods, they did not even win the District Title. The answer to my trivia question was.....Spring Branch H.S. won District that year! Who was their coach - Wayne Graham. This was his one year between coaching me at Scarborough (Class of 1980) and beginning his career at San Jac. In Graham's one year at Spring Branch, he turned some decent kids into really good players - Todd Edwards (2B) Blinn and Texas A & M, Kyle Todd - Baylor, Jon Koenig - Southwestern, and Mark Johnson (C) who, like me, did not play college ball but went to A & M. Mark is now a dentist. Most, if not all of these kids played in the Karl Young Baseball League here in Houston after our senior years, or during their college years - Noble. I think they only took 20 high school kids and mixed them with the college kids. Good old John Elkins (A&M backup QB) from Baytown Lee also played in Karl Young with me. Leucken was in another summer league out of state.

I'm sorry to have to forcefully straighten out your unwarranted ******* comments. If you or any of your friends talk to Graham, or even his assistant from St. Pius H.S., David Pierce, for that matter, PLEASE ask them to validate if they know some old guy from Scarborough named Jeff Drury. I'm not trying to toot my horn, or remember "glory days" from what - over 25 years ago. I'm just straightening out your STUPID replies.

I will be waiting to watch the crow-eating exhibition.

I also stated in the original post that it was Clemens' JUNIOR Year in H.S. that he was the 3rd pitcher behind (obviously) Noble and Leucken - 2 SENIOR pitchers. I find it hard to see what it is that you missed in my ORIGINAL post, or what your problem is.

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Gus was the worst at mismanaging pitchers

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I've heard this complaint from a friend of mine that played for Gus. They did not care about your arm, they would start you one day and put you back out in relief the next.

I'm guessing that Rock for Brains (appropriately) went and hid under one.

Yes I misread your post, thanks for sending it back to the top to allow me the opportunity to read it again

Also you seem to be very witty and original. Did it really take you that long to come up with that?

Hey, I'm an old fart. Maybe not a "never-was", but more like a "has-been". It just tweaked me the wrong way when you had those snide, smart aleck comments. I didn't just read or hear the info. in my first post, I LIVED it. My mom would not come home from work and make up a story like that. She told it to me in the summer of 1981. As I said, if you or any friends know Coach Graham, please feel free to ask him about it. I like and admire the man, but have no real contact with him these days.

To add another item to the whole Rice conversation, I was offered to play for David Hall, the new coach at Rice in 1980, also. I told him that I was going to Fish Camp and we could sit down and discuss particulars with my parents after that. It's pretty obvious the influence that Fish Camp had...Oh - and Coach Hall told me that with my 1190 SAT and pretty good H.S grades that I could enter Rice "as an athlete".

Let's quit griping amongst ourselves and get some good karma for the good guys. BTHO Rice!! Two straight now!!!

Hey Jackoff

Great story, I shed a tear

I was recruited by Hall, Graham and Johnson (Also Marquess, Martin, Gustafason and a few others)

I chose A&M

To Bad you did not take Graham up on his offer, you could be playing for the Yankees today. Well Clemens is pitching today, you could pitch tomorrow

Rock -

Just perusing the site and noticed you responded. I've been pretty busy and gone a few days. I didn't think your response could be as stupid as it was. Congratulations - you've exceeded my expectations!!

Believe what you want. Please feel free to verify. You're a tool!!! What's with the name-calling little boy? Is it just being a moron, or what? I DO feel sorry for you and your small existence.

have a friend who pitched for Graham at Rice. He has nothing good to say about him...strike that ... one positive he had of Graham is that he will get every ounce of talent and effort out of you. Downside is (was?) that Graham only cared about Rice, not your future in pro ball etc. He convinced my friend to not have surgery in the off-season because the team needed him the next year...pitch thru the pain...he blew out his shoulder the next season...never pitched again.

Maroon

Your story doesn't surprise me. Kenny Baugh threw 170+ pitches in ONE GAME. That should be all you need to know yet he keeps getting top talent. Why?

Wayne gets top talent because he turns guys who weren't drafted out of high school (Jeff Niemann, Wade Townsend, etc) into multi-millionaires. Niemann got a $5.2M contract. He overused Kenny Baugh, but has changed his ways dramatically since then. Take a look at Boyd's (or is it Warren Nolan's?) website where he spotlights guys who throw over 120 pitches. You won't find any Rice guys on there in the last couple of years. Wayne and staff are the best developers of pitchers in the country, in my opinion. That's why teams like the Aggies and Baylor can outrecruit Rice every single year, yet Rice has the freshmen pitcher of the year like Ryan Berry on the hill winning super regional games and now going on to Team USA this summer.

Can you imagine what Wayne would have done with somebody with stuff like Mark McCormick from Baylor, or even guys like Kyle Thebeau or Jordan Chambless? They'd be All Americans, no doubt in my mind.

This spreading rumors about Wayne overusing pitchers is a thing of the past and a weak attempt to tear down Wayne and the Rice program. But hey, that's what happens to the big dog who is on top.