There is an insider story on espn.com by Rob Neyer discussing Bagwell's HOF credentials. I don't have insider, and I would love it if someone could give me a rundown. I'm not asking anyone to copy and paste the dang thing. Thanks.

Jake

Wow..I was just thinking the same thing..I was on there and saw that article...would like to see the whole article.

AgRyan has a great write up on this.

Neyer compares Bagwells' career numbers to the 18 first basemen in the Hall:

Runs
8

Hits
10

RBI
9

OBP
5

Slug
5

OPS+
7


[This message has been edited by BMX Bandit (edited 3/27/2006 4:03p).]

you left off the steroids stat.

Thanks BMX

Here is the link:
http://tamu-and-baseball.com/archives/arch20041010.html#bagwellhof

I wrote that in October of '04 which was before all this steriods stuff got to where it is now. It will be interesting to see how the HOF voters look at this generation of players as a whole.

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what steroid stat is that?

What gets Bagwell into the HOF is his very high run total. Not sure how steroids helped with that.

I was looking through some of my old cards the other day. He used to be skinnier than Bonds was.

so anyone that gained muscle is automatically a steroid user?

I would not be shocked if it came out Bagwell did some of the juice. But this blanket condemnation of every player really must stop.

[This message has been edited by BMX Bandit (edited 3/27/2006 5:03p).]

Goodness, He had a monster year in 2000, and he didn't win the MVP?

he just looks like a steroid user. thats good enough in my book.

with sound reasoning & logic like that, how can one disagree?

his stats and figure tell me all there is to know. oh, and he was good buddies with caminiti.

[This message has been edited by AllDayAP (edited 3/27/2006 5:48p).]

which stats and figures are you referring to?

I wasn't implying that Bagwell did use steriods (although I would take the over on that if I were putting a bet down).

What I was questioning was how voters will look at this entire generation of players. I have a feeling there will be a blanket thrown on all these guys simply because it's the "Steroid era". Numbers in general will be looked at as less valuable because of the era they were collected. It's kind of like pitching is looked at from the mid-to-late 60's.

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wasn't talking to you. what you are saying is true, and it will be interesting. as I said, its the high run numbers, that are not steroid related, that get Bagwell in IMO.

his forearms are thicker than my waist now. used to be about the same size as my forearms.

I think Bagwell gets in because of his numbers and a few intangibles that no one has mentioned yet...

- played 10 years in the (cavernous) Astrodome
- considered a "gamer" like Biggio
- from the northeast U.S. and well-liked by the media up there. Will get the Boston & New York votes
- has a lot of great stats besides home runs, which is the big knock against McGwire. You cannot say that all Bags did was hit home runs.
- excellent defensive player and base-runner/stealer in his time

I don't put too much weight on the whole Astrodome thing in Bagwell's case.

He hit virtually exactly the same in the Dome as he did on the road (it's actually freaky how similar the numbers are).

Plus he played 5 or 6 seasons at MMP where his numbers were leaps and bounds better than on the road.

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Thanks

quote:

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oh, and he was good buddies with caminiti

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Biggio was even better buddies with Cammy. Was he on the juice, too?

(P.S., I think Bagwell gets in)


Gig'em

[This message has been edited by EKGillThe12thMan (edited 3/27/2006 8:44p).]

I would be as unsurprised about Bidge as I would Bags.

Biggio got pretty big those last couple of years in the Dome....so much so that he lost some of his range at second base. After his knee injury he seemed to lose some of that bulk.

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quote:

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excellent defensive player and base-runner/stealer in his time

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I think Bagwell was probably one of the best, if not the best, defensive first baseman of the 1990s. I've never seen anyone cover a bunt like Bagwell. He was fearless.

He was also one of the better baserunners in the 90s. Certainly the best first baseman on the base paths. Despite not having great speed he still turned in a couple 30-30 seasons. He rarely made mistakes on the basepaths. I think this is underapreciated.

Bags was great around the bag and I think he was one of the most complete 1st basemen (offensively and defensively) however there were guys in the league simply because they could save runs at 1st base who were better solely on the defensive side (J.T. Snow comes to mind....and later Doug Mientkiewicz).

He was definately one of the best, but saying he was the best might be stretching it a bit

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[This message has been edited by AgRyan04 (edited 3/27/2006 10:08p).]

Austin brought up the point I was thinking, his speed. When they compare Bags to 1b'ers in the HOF, they leave off his steals (202) and doubles (488). There is no real good way to measure baserunning ability.

If you compare him to other 1b'ers in the hall, then he should get in. If you compare him to other sluggers of this generation, then I don't think he does. My vote is yes.

When you add everything together - hitting, defense, baserunning, it is clear that Bags was a complete player and a winner to boot. A nothing special Astros organization became a playoff regular with his and Biggio's leadership. Bags to the HOF.

I am a lifetime Astros fan but do not think Bagwell is a HOFer. He was a very good slugger in an era of great sluggers -- Bonds, Sosa, McGwire. His numbers in general are impressive,there are plenty of players his age who have identical numbers that I don't consider HOF material, Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, Albert Belle, Juan Gonzalez and Gary Sheffield among them.

These guys are to the 1990s and 2000s as guys like Dave Parker and Jim Rice were to the 1970s and 1980s, great players, all-stars, but a step below HOF status.

Biggio on the other hand has made himself a HOFer in the last 3 seasons, averaging 99 runs per season from ages 37-39, missing only 22 games in that span and setting new HR career highs in the past 2 years. Assuming he stays healthy, Biggio will enter the stratosphere in several categories. Another 100 runs will put him tied for 16th with Ted Williams, 40 more doubles will put him 8th all-time. Plus there's no bigger gamer in the bigs.

Gotta disagree with Biggio and steroid rumors.

His highest HR season was...last year (2005) with 26.

And his second highest HR season was...the year before (2004) with 24.

Also after Biggio tore up his knee during the 2000 season (and the 'stros moved into MMP), he changed his offensive game. Basically cut back on stolen bases, walks, and on-base %. Focused more on power (crawford boxes) and racking up a lot of hits to get to 3,000.

You really shouldn't compare Bagwell to players who didn't play his position. Would you compare Ozzie Smith to Lou Gehrig?

Bagwell was one of the top 1st basemen in baseball for a decade...even if a portion of that decade was the steroid era. He could do everything well, hit for power, hit for average, steal a base, defense...etc. About the only negative he has is that he sucked donkey balls in the playoffs. His stats match up very favorly with people who are already in the hall and therefore he goes, in my opinion.

one more thing that helps both Bidge and Bags...they played their entire career with one team (a la Ripken, Brett, Puckett, Yount, etc..)

This fact will score big points & votes from the old school baseball writers

I'm not sure that the steroid factor does not come into play bigger over the next few years. From a Native Houstonian Astros Fan, I hope he gets in. However, how do you explain the emergence of a ton of very average hitters (some were great defensive players) over the last decade or two. I'm not trying to implicate, but a few that easily come to mind that passed through the Astros organization are Steve Finley and Luis Gonzales,in addition to the obvious Bonds, Sosa, Sheffield, etc.

What would the stats be for many of the players already in the HOF if they had not been on speed?

Oh yea, steriods are bad, and greenies are good, I forgot. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

Finley and Gonzo's power numbers went up dramatically after leaving Houston (as did Caminiti's). I think the steroid debate actually helps Bagwell. He is rarely mentioned among guys thought to have juiced. His numbers are equal or better than every first baseman of his generation. He ranks first or second in most Astros' offensive statistics. He and Biggio were the face of a perrenial playoff franchise (unfortunately they never did much in the playoffs until year before last). I think he gets in when it's all said and done. BTW, Jim Rice should be in the HOF.

Bagwell didn't balloon in one year the way Bonds did. His head didn't ever get huge. I seriously doubt that he took steroids, and I'm not a fan of the Astros (or Bagwell) at all.

Do you think his chances will be hurt by his horrendous production in the playoffs?

I don't think he's first ballot, but will get in pretty quickly.

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Oh yea, steriods are bad, and greenies are good, I forgot.

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Nobody was stopping this era of sluggers from using both. Pump up with the juice and pop a greenie after batting practice.

Nobody has to decide anything for 5 years. If Bags doesn't play this year, so it'll be 2010 before he's even a candidate. That hiatus should give us a good idea about impact of steriods. If everybody's numbers drop off, then Bags, Palmeiro, and others will have their stats viewed with very large grain of salt.