I'm not a baseball fan in general unless we are talking about Aggie baseball, so I'm admitting to a lack of MLB knowledge.

With his performance as a closer this weekend Clemens continues to amaze everyone (at least that is what they said on Sports Center).

Is Roger Clemens the best pitcher ever? Rank the five best pitchers to play MLB.

Thanks

Alphabetically:

R. Clemens
B. Gibson
W. Johnson
S. Koufax
C. Young

In no particular order

Clemens
Gibson
Koufax
Cy Young
Nolan Ryan

I reserve the right to change, because this is just off the top of my head:

- Clemens
- Mathewson
- W. Johnson
- Koufax
- Steve Carlton

Carlton (4 cy's - won 27 of his teams 56 wins one year)
Clemons (#1 in cy's, #2 in K's, still marching up the win's list)
Gibson (When he was on, he was the most dominant pitcher of all-time)
Koufax (career cut way too short)

The best modern era pitcher...no doubt.

I don't care how different the game was back in the day. Cy Young has 511 wins, 749 complete games, 7355 innings pitched and a lifetime ERA of 2.63. That's flat out impressive.

A few more names that belong in the dicussion-

Lefty Grove
Satchel Paige
Tom Seaver
Warren Spahn

some of you guys forgot tim redding on your lists...

and Dan Micelli along with David Weathers.

since WWII an argument could be made that Clemens is the best ever.

The fact that Roger pitched during the supplement era against souped-up sluggers and pitched in the bandbox ballparks, that is to his credit.

Koufax would also be in the top 2.

Clemens also benefited from the supplement era.

quote:

---

Clemens also benefited from the supplement era.

---

As did all those who hit against him.

why post what W said?

hitters benefit from supplements far more than pitchers ever could. stop talking.
thanks.

BMX

Sorry, I did not see W's post. You were just replying to it.

I think you could make a strong case for Greg Maddux being on the list, too.

I could make a strong case for NoCy Ryan not being on the list.


I think there is no doubt that you have to mention Roger in there with Sandy Koufax, Gibson, etc as the best ever.

too bad JR Richard had his career shortend too- he was on a pace for 4000 Ks and could very well have had 300 wins

Hey, don't leave out Todd Van Popple... not.

Easy fellas. You forget the best pitcher of all-time. Rapid Robert Feller.

Since I never saw any of these guys pitch other than Rocket, it kind of forces me to go by what legend tells us.

Actually, since there are very few who have ever seen some of these guys pitch I'd be interested to know how much of it actually is legend that doesn't die because we've been told they were the best. I mean, we only have documents stating how good some of these guys were and sure their stats are incredible but who really knows? I didn't say that too well, but I think you get what I mean.

Talk about splitting hairs (in no particular order)

Walter Johnson
Lefty Grove
Cy Young
Rocket
Sandy Koufax


I thought it would be interesting to see what Bill James came up with in his most recent book that covers the topic, The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract (note this was through the 2000 season, which really only affects rocket and maddux):

1. Walter Johnson
2. Lefty Grove
3. Pete Alexander
4. Cy Young
5. Warren Spahn
6. Tom Seaver
7. Christy Mathewson
8. Bob Gibson
9. Kid Nichols
10. Sandy Koufax
11. Roger Clemens
12. Bob Feller
13. Carl Hubbell
14. Greg Maddux
15. Steve Carlton

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Check out "Texas A&M & Baseball In No Particular Order"
at tamu-and-baseball.com

[This message has been edited by AgRyan04 (edited 10/10/2005 7:26p).]

i have to agree with rocks for brains, just because the names i keep seeing are pitchers from a very different era...alot of the time, being a great pitchers isnt necessarily all in the numbers, it has alot to do with mound presence and other intangibles. clemens has it, koufax had it, gibson had it, carlton had it....we just cant judge with much accuracy what walter johnson or lefty grove were like, apart from simply looking at their numbers, which are important, but i dont think pitchers that none of us have ever seen on the mound can be judged based solely on the number of wins they had

I stated it midway through the season, and I'll state it again:

Roger Clemens is the best pitcher of all time.

Roger Clemens is the best pitcher of YOUR time.

sidd finch. he threw 195 miles an hour. but for some reason always had his best games on april 1st every year.

[This message has been edited by fgtntexag07 (edited 10/10/2005 11:39p).]

No mention of Satchel Paige. Made his MLB debut at the age of 42. Joe Dimaggio called him "the best and fastest pitcher I've ever faced".

posted by jkag89 at2:19p, 10/10/2005

quote:

---

A few more names that belong in the dicussion-

Lefty Grove
Satchel Paige
Tom Seaver
Warren Spahn

---

Any list that does not include Nolan Ryan in the top 5 loses credibility with me.

I'd go with (no particular order) Ryan, Clemens, Koufax, Gibson, and Cy Young.

you're not really gaining any credibility with that comment either

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Check out "Texas A&M & Baseball In No Particular Order"
at tamu-and-baseball.com

Yeah, I won't bring that one-sided arguement up. If Ryan is in anyone's Top 5 they are going off of "legend", not actual performance.

no

Any list that includes Nolan Ryan in the Top 5 loses credibility with me

SPorts Illustrated ran a What If article with a couple of players, JR RIchard would have been unbelievable if not for the yeyo

Nolan Ryan should not be part of this discussion

Cy Young BY FAR.

He was 34-16 in 1893 and 35-10 in 1895.

He went over 30 wins in a season five times.

In a six season span from 1891 to 1896 he had 255 Complete Games.

In 1892, he pitched 453 innings.

His career ERA was 2.63 while pitching in 906 games over a 21 year career.

No one will ever have 500 wins in the future of the game. For Clemens to reach 500 wins, he'd have to pitch until he was in his 60's if he was to maintain at least 15 wins per season.