Lots of noise early in the year about dumping Biggio and Bagwell. Will be lots of noise in the offseason about "going young".

Food for thought:

Biggio's career 162-game averages prior to 2004 on the left, his 2004 projections in parentheses.

Runs 108 (106)
Hits 177 (187)
2b 37 (48)
HR 15 (25)
RBI 67 (65)
BA .287 (.288)
OBP .375 (.348)
SLG .432 (.476)
OPS .807 (.824)

What does that tell you? That in his 17th season in the majors, Biggio is better than his standard this year. That's impressive. I agree that he can be a defensive liability, but I argue that it's not only a good idea to keep him from a career achievement standpoint, but because he's still getting it done at the plate.

Next year, hopefully in an Astro uniform, Biggio will reach the following milestones, assuming no precipitous dropoff:

1700 runs scored, moving him into 24th all time - passing Winfield, Mantle, Brock, Kaline, Murray, Yount and Ripken, among others.

2800 hits, moving him into 42nd all time - passing Gehrig, Parker, Ted William & Andre Dawson, among others.

600 doubles, moving him into 13th all time - passing Gehringer, Boggs, Yount & possibly Ripken. Another standard season would move him into 7th or 8th all time.

250 HRs and 1000 RBI, both of which are none too shabby for a leadoff hitter not known as having much pop. For comparison purposes, the 100th all time HR hitter hit 297, and the 100th all time RBI man drove in 1244. Both are potentially reachable for Biggio, which would be pretty amazing.

Oh yeah, he'll also challenge for 3rd all time in HBP.

Now for Bagwell. The way many have described it, you'd think he's had the worst offensive season since Mendoza. Not the case.

162-game average, followed by projected 2004 numbers:

Runs 116 (108)
Hits 177 (155)
2b 38 (29)
HR 35 (28)
RBI 118 (86)
BB 107 (100)
BA .300 (.273)
OBP .411 (.389)
SLG .549 (.481)
OPS .960 (.870)

I think it's safe to say that he's having a subpar year by his standards, but he seems to be coming around (last week .333 BA, .500 OBP, .762 SLG) and even a relatively poor year for him is pretty freaking good.

He'll be an Astro next year, barring something odd. And, assuming he has a year fairly close to this one (I believe it's more likely that he'll do better, not worse), Jeff will hit the following milestones:

1700 runs scored which puts him in the same situation as Biggio (see above).

2400 hits, which puts him in the top 100 all time.

500 doubles, which puts him in the top 40 all time.

475 HRs, which puts him in the top 25 all time.

1600 RBI, which puts him in the top 25 all time.

1500 BBs, which puts him in roughly the top 15 all time.

There have been many who've had better seasons than Jeff, but not very many at all who have been as good as him for as long as him.

So, in summary, I think it would be a shame if either Craig or Jeff is gone next year. It would be a shame from a career perspective (how the hell could anyone want to see those guys in a different uniform?), AND from a 2005 perspective, because both guys are still much better than the average player.

If you made it this far, your thoughts?

Bagwell might be able to be a DH in the American...since he can't throw from 1st to 3rd...I say get what you can for him at seasons end...I know he has several years left on his contract...but its your hypothetical.
Move Lamb to 1st. He may not be the greatest fielder..but on 1st should be more than adequate. His hitting if projected out to to having the same number of at bats as Bagwell..he would have 26 HR's to Bags 24. 118 RBIs to Bags 73 and he is batting .320 vs Bags .273....plus you have millions to keep Beltran.
Biggio. Keep him in left next year...even though the years have taken its toll on his speed and arm...he should have another year left and can be substituted often with Lane.

Bags is making 16 Mil in '04 and doubt if his salary goes down in '05. His numbers the past 2 years show that his best years are behind him.He is riding on past performance. Historically, Bags has called out Astros mgmt. for failing to sign Kyle & Hampton and the trade of Wags. Now, it's Bagwell's turn to sack up. If he would defer some of his salary for a couple of years, it would free up some money to possibly sign Beltran, if this is where Carlos really wants to be.

Is Bagwell the team player he is perceived as, or is he just another money-hungry athlete that has the me 1st attitude? The shoe is on the other foot, now.......

For the clueless, Bagwell deferred a significant amount of money on his current deal to the last few years of it in an attempt to help the payroll situation in the previous seasons. Perhaps, he will do what some Houston "fans" want and just play for free. Perhaps, he can give back the money that he already made too.

FYI - Check out the player's union response to Arod trying to take a few dollars off his contract to help get him out of Arlington and to The Bronx...

Gap,

Where is your source?

If this is true, I will respect Bags for it, otherwise, I stick to my original comments about him.

Here is my source:

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/players/playerpage/7400

Also, note his BA against Lefties this year..pathetic!

Craig Biggio has had a fantastic year as the numbers show. Including over 60 extra base hits. The Astros don't have a better option at the leadoff spot in the order, and Biggio will be relatively cheap for $2 or 3 mil next year. He will be back.

Biggio has also taken a huge step towards the hall of fame this year. I think 2800 hits would be enough to get him in the hall. Plus any postseason success if the Astros make it would help too. Some folks forget that Biggio is from New York and his hometown is just about 100 miles from Cooperstown as the crow flies. He will get the votes of the New York City media and that will be a huge benefit. I think he deserves it now by having a great season at age 38.

Bagwell and Biggio have put done so much for this franchise, its unfortunate that some of the more shortsighted fans criticize them now that they are later in thier careers and are no longer able to put up All Star numbers. I dont have a link, but Gap is right about Bagwell deferring a lot of the money in his contract. Bags has always been underpayed, relatively speaking, until now. Both guys have had great careers and they will always be two of my favorite players, I hope they both finish their careers in Houston.

Biggio and Bagwell remind me of the good ole days when great players played their whole careers with one team-- and were the very identity of the team. Nothing would be better for them to play a few more years, go to the Series together and enter the Hall together.

I dont have a scource either but yes bagwell did change up his contract which everybody and there brother was telling us could not be restructered and we were dumb for thinking it could. If he will just stay consistent and takes a significant pay cut, then i dont have a problem with him coming back for another season or two. HOWEVER he needs to get healthy in the offseason and i heard he was going to change his stance this offseason. If he does both those things then i think he will be okay next year.

First off, there's no need to post Biggio's numbers from this year. Ain't an Astro fan around who's said he's had an off year or we should dump him. The only complaints are about his defense, which is understandable and explainable.

Second, about Bags, well, if it wasn't for the last few weeks, those numbers would be pretty damn low. And since he's supposed to be the franchise, he needs to be leading the team and putting up his best numbers, especially since he's making the most money. He doesn't have several, but I think he has two years left on his contract, and he's always put the team first when it comes to his own financial situation. Lamb will not be playing first base. Eventually, Berkman will likely take the reigns over there.

If the two can continue what they've started the last 25 games or so, and get us into the playoffs, then attitudes will have already changed. Both from them and us.







"Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall."

I thought Biggio was a much better CF this year than last year (though not a good one by a long stretch). I think he is better suited for left with his range and arm - there is no reason he will not continue to improve next year after having a chance to work on it during the offseason / spring training.

Biggio should be a hall of famer if he retired tomorrow.

to support gap's point:

quote:

---

Jeff Bagwell - signed a 6-year contract extension worth up to $96 million. The deal includes a $15 million bonus deferred over 2002 to 2006. In addition, a large portion of each year's salary is deferred 2 years, with interest. The base salary for each season with the deferred amounts (in parenthesis) is: 2002 - $8M ($2M), 2003 - $10M ($3M), 2004 - $13M ($6M), 2005 - $15M ($8M), 2006 - $17M ($10M). His last season under contract is 2007, which is a club option worth $18 million. If that option is not exercised, a buyout of $12 million is required.

---

http://www.astrosdaily.com/files/team/contract.html

quote:

---

First off, there's no need to post Biggio's numbers from this year. Ain't an Astro fan around who's said he's had an off year or we should dump him. The only complaints are about his defense, which is understandable and explainable.

---

And yet there have been national news articles about Biggio's future in Houston...

The problem with biggio is that he is almost out of positions to play anymore. I mean he has been doing a pretty good job in left, but lets be honest the guy is not an outfielder. His arm is not very good and you can tell he is just uncomfortable out there. With a contract that will not be very big i say we should obviously keep him, but we need to move him back to secondbase.

Put lane in left and let burke get a little PT. Everybody says burke is ready to play but jason lane has been ready to play for several seasons now with tons of big league experience........i dont want to get rid of biggios bat so for me it basically boils down to do we want to play lane and biggio or lane and burke?

Gap had one of the most intelligent posts I've seen around here in a long time....

Bagwell not only deferred his money but the reason that he's making >$15M in his last several years is because he took less in the first few years of the contract to give the team more flexibility

http://dugoutdollars.blogspot.com/2003_06_22_dugoutdollars_archive.html
(one of the best websites on the web with regards to contracts)

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Check out "Texas A&M & Baseball In No Particular Order"
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[This message has been edited by AgRyan04 (edited 9/9/2004 11:45p).]

ryan, thanks for that link. great site.

that's what I'm here for...

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Check out "Texas A&M & Baseball In No Particular Order"
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