***NET WAB Watch***

5,603 Views | 61 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by linkdude
bobinator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
So talked about this on a few threads, but it probably deserves it's own. As everyone knows, the NCAA ditched the RPI for the NET a few years ago. It has its own flaws, but this was a major step forward.

Last year the NCAA added a new metric, the NET WAB. (good article from CBS on it) The WAB (wins above bubble) isn't new, it's been used by analytics guys previously, but the NCAA didn't officially have it on the team sheets. Now not only is it on the team sheets, but the NCAA has it's own WAB metric.

And, somehow, against all odds. I think this thing is great. I'm not completely convinced they shouldn't just use it to seed the tournament. The first I glanced at it last year I thought "holy ****, did they just finally nail it?"

How does WAB work?

The WAB is a formula to determine how many wins an average bubble team would have against your schedule. For example, an average bubble team would have been expected to beat Oklahoma about 50% of the time. We won the game, and so indeed, our NET WAB went up by about .5 and we jumped up four spots overnight. Our next game is against Arkansas where an average bubble team would only be expected to win ~19% of the time. So if we lose we'll lose .19, but a win would gain us .81.

Why is it better than just the NET?

The NET is a predictive metric like KenPom or Torvik's TRank. It is meant to show you how good a team actually is, right now. If team A played team B tonight on a neutral floor, who's most likely to win? But that's not really what people want to select the NCAA Tournament. It's not just about efficiency, it's about real-world results. So the NET WAB is exactly that. It doesn't matter if you won the game by 100 or by 1, you won the game.

So what does it actually matter?

Last year no metric more closely resembled the final seed list than the NET WAB. This is last year's true seed list against the NET WEB (with a couple of the auto bids removed near the bubble to make it easier to understand.) And I suspect that some of the bigger variations here were mostly done for bracketing purposes.



Okay so what's the deal right now?

The team's from about 26 all the way to 44 are all bunched up very tightly this year. #25 Wisconsin is .61 wins clear of #26 Utah State, but take away .61 from Utah State and they fall the way to #34. And the gap between a team solidly in the field right now, say SMU at 2.15 and being the last team in the field, someone like Ohio State, is just 1.2

This matters for us because we have three pretty big swing WAB games left. WAB Watch doesn't use the exact formulation, so the numbers are slightly off, but it still gives a pretty good estimate of what a game is going to be worth.

Current WAB: 1.58
at Arkansas: .81
Texas: .37
Kentucky: .39
at LSU: .54

This is also why when people want a simple answer to "do we get in with 10 wins?" it's not that easy. I saw a post that someone was mad about moving the goalposts on wins, but that's exactly the case here. The target is always moving, and it's not the same year to year. Last year's bubble cut off ended up being around .8. Where North Carolina sat just ahead of West Virginia.

This weekend was good for us, with all kinds of teams around us taking losses, some of them to teams that aren't very good, like Clemson's home loss to Florida State sent them tumbling from 27 down to 37.

TL,DR; For people that want a pretty easy way to follow whether we're going to make it to the NCAA Tournament, follow the NET WAB. Last year everyone in the top 42 made the tournament, and everyone that made it as an at-large ranked in the 40's. We currently sit at #40.
halfastros81
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Thanks for posting . Good stuff!
bobinator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
NP!

Nothing too exciting on the WAB front tonight. But this might make it easier for people to wrap their heads around because it is a little tricky.

Houston at Kansas tonight is a big + game for whoever wins it, but not a big minus game for whoever loses it. The relative value of each team to each other doesn't matter, it's just their relative value to an average bubble team. So, by WAB Watch (again, not exact, but pretty close) if Houston wins, they'll get a bump of roughly .84, for Kansas it's .77.

This means an average bubble team would be expected to win at Kansas 16% of the time, and an average bubble team would expect to win at home against Houston 23% of the time.
Divining Rod
How long do you want to ignore this user?
That's great!

I do wonder one thing and don't kniw if you have an answer:

Why the two big "misses" for Ole Miss and Louisville last year? i.e., diff in their lower seeding vs what WAB predicted?
'
Method Man
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bobinator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I think there's a couple things at play:

- Just because this metric most closely resembles the seed list doesn't mean they were actually referring directly to it all that often. Like I don't think they said "well Louisville is 17 in the NET WAB but we don't like (whatever) so we're going to dock them." I think the NET WAB just happens to do a really good job for the most part at valuing what the committee values.

- There also was possibly some seed tinkering going on to avoid potential rematches and for certain locations. Like Louisville was seeded lower than they should have been but got to play in Lexington.
Faustus
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I gave you a shout out on the women's board for WAB.
https://texags.com/forums/58/topics/3595874/replies/71934810

The Aggie women are just a couple of slots behind the men in WAB at No. 42 notwithstanding the way the teams' respective seasons are viewed.

https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/basketball-women/d1/wab-ranking
GrayMatter
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Alabama
NET: 21 | WAB: 6.44
1) Mississippi State @ Alabama Feb 25
2) TBD Feb 28
3) Alabama @ Georgia Mar 3
4) Auburn @ Alabama Mar 7

Florida
NET: 7 | WAB: 6.21
1) Florida @ Texas Feb 25
2) Arkansas @ Florida Feb 28
3) Mississippi State @ Florida Mar 3
4) Florida @ Kentucky Mar 7

Tennessee
NET: 17 | WAB: 5.12
1) Tennessee @ Missouri Feb 24/
2) Alabama @ Tennessee Feb 28
3) Tennessee @ South Carolina Mar 3
4) Vanderbilt @ Tennessee Mar 7

Arkansas
NET: 20 | WAB: 4.90
1) Texas A&M @ Arkansas Feb 25
2) Arkansas @ Florida Feb 28
3) Texas @ Arkansas Mar 4
4) Arkansas @ Missouri Mar 7

Vanderbilt
NET: 16 | WAB: 4.87
1) Georgia @ Vanderbilt Feb 25
2) Vanderbilt @ Kentucky Feb 28
3) Ole Miss @ Vanderbilt Mar 3
4) Vanderbilt @ Tennessee Mar 7

Kentucky
NET: 29 | WAB: 2.78
1) Kentucky @ South Carolina Feb 24
2) Vanderbilt @ Kentucky Feb 28
3) Kentucky @ Texas A&M Mar 3
4) Florida @ Kentucky Mar 7

Georgia
NET: 34 | WAB: 2.02
1) Georgia @ Vanderbilt Feb 25
2) South Carolina @ Georgia Feb 28
3) Alabama @ Georgia Mar 3
4) Georgia @ Mississippi State Mar 7

Auburn
NET: 33 | WAB: 1.78
1) Auburn @ Oklahoma Feb 24
2) Ole Miss @ Auburn Feb 28
3) LSU @ Auburn Mar 3
4) Auburn @ Alabama Mar 7

Texas A&M
NET: 42 | WAB: 1.58
1) Texas A&M @ Arkansas Feb 25
2) Texas A&M vs Texas Feb 28
3) Texas A&M vs Kentucky Mar 3
4) Texas A&M @ LSU Mar 7

Missouri
NET: 61 | WAB: 1.42
1) Tennessee @ Missouri Feb 24
2) Missouri @ Mississippi State Feb 28
3) Missouri @ Oklahoma Mar 3
4) Arkansas @ Missouri Mar 7

Texas
NET: 39 | WAB: 1.08
1) Florida @ Texas Feb 25
2) Texas @ Texas A&M Feb 28
3) Texas @ Arkansas Mar 4
4) Oklahoma @ Texas Mar 7
bobinator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Interesting! Would be fascinating to see what the women's committee would do if they win their last two games.

There's some different dynamics in play in the women's game I imagine, but I honestly don't follow it that closely.
Detmersdislocatedshoulder
How long do you want to ignore this user?
gri at additional data and seems to be more in line with what has transpired during the non conference but uodates to include conference.

i still think 11 wins and we're in. so 2-2 down the stretch
aggiez03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Great Stuff Bob..

How is the win likelyhood (%) against any opponent determined?

You said they have determined a 19% chance to win @Arky...

Is this based on the line? Odds makers, etc?

Or is it the difference in A&M vs Arkie's WAB #s?

For instance, lines don't come out until about 2 days before a game, but you already have the WAB for our remaining games, so it doesn't seem to be based on the line of the game...
JJxvi
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Hell yeah Im ready to talk about this stat…

Most importantly, how do yall say it? I expect most "experts" just say "Net wins above bubble" leaving NET as an acronym and using the second part without abbreviation despite the multiple mixed signals that that obviously sends. However, clearly the play here is to start saying "net wab!" right? The only thing Im certain is wrong is mixing an acronym with an initialism and saying "Net W-A-B" like a fool.
Hardworking, Unselfish, Fearless
AgEng06
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I'm all in on "net wab".
bobinator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Yeah I say it like my handle, maybe should change it to WABinator.
bobinator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I don't know how the exact hamsters on those wheels are calculated, but it's a mathematical formula somehow. It's essentially what are the odds that an average bubble team (theoretically team #45 in the NET) would win that game based on where it's played, the strength of the opponent, etc. You'd need their back end numbers presumably to recreate it exactly.
JJxvi
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Calculation of WAB works like this...

The first thing is the calculation of NET.

NET ranks every team by efficiency (more or less). Efficiency is based on points (and points allowed) per possession.

With an efficiency rating you can then calculate the probability of who will win a hypothetical matchup between any two teams (this is the "prediction" part of a predictive metric). A team that has been more efficient is more likely to win a game against team that has been less efficient. This part is where the hamster wheels are.

WAB picks a baseline team to represent the "bubble team" (I believe this is the 45th rated team in NET).

This baseline teams NET rating and all of your opponents NET ratings are run through the hamster wheels to get the expected number of wins using the probability comparison I mentioned above. Then its just your wins minus the bubble teams expected wins.
Hardworking, Unselfish, Fearless
AgEng06
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
bobinator said:

Yeah I say it like my handle, maybe should change it to WABinator.

Ah, going with the long "a" sound. I was going with the short "a", but I don't dislike "net wob" either.
Lynott
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
So is this suggesting that a win @LSU is worth more than a win at home vs Texas? Everything seems to overvalue home court advantage.
Method Man
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Maybe Cardi B should make a song about it.
bobinator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I think this sometimes also, but I think it's less about overrating home court advantage and more rewarding teams for winning games away from home. As the NCAA Tournament is a neutral site tournament, it does make some sense to place a premium on winning games outside your home arena.

Plus I'm sure the weights are based on historical data.
JJxvi
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
So put into explicit descriptive language, our NET WAB of 1.58 means that, based on NET ratings, we have won 1.58 games more than VCU (#45 in NET) would be expected to win if VCU played our schedule.
Hardworking, Unselfish, Fearless
aggiez03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Ok. Just wondering as it seems like that would be directly correlated to lines for games as well, if your team is sitting in the 40s like A&M.

I like this metric as well. It would be an interesting study to see how the % correlates to actual results.

For example, Up until this year, Auburn was really, really good at home. So Auburn might have a 20% chance to win against Florida at home, but had only lost 5 games in 5 years at home, so is that figured in or is it just based on the WAB of the two teams, etc. One would think historical dominance might figure in somehow.
bobinator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I doubt the NCAA's formula includes any sort of historical home court advantage data for each specific team, though I suppose it's possible that other sites do.
bobinator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
To be honest this is where my brain starts to fall apart a little bit on the concept because VCU is actually #48 in the NET WAB and they're .6 wins ahead of where... a hypthetical historically-normalized VCU would be against their own schedule...?
JJxvi
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Expected wins for any game is always a decimal between 0 and 1, so the total isnt likely to be a whole number. The 0.6 would be the same thing as their Luck rating on Kenpom. Luck is just WAY (Wins Above Yourself)
Hardworking, Unselfish, Fearless
bobinator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Yeah like I know the math is more complicated than that, it's just hard for my brain to wrap around. It feels counterintuitive that the baseline for WAB wouldn't have a WAB of zero or very near zero. Or at least the lowest WAB above zero.
Sterling82
How long do you want to ignore this user?
My takeaway is we must win two games and it doesn't matter which two. A win over Arkansas while losing the remaining 3 will drop the WAB about 0.9 which is high 40s.

Winning 3 might get the WAB to low 30s. Winning any 2 doesn't move the needle much but 0.1 could make a difference.

Then again, I could be wrong.
JJxvi
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
The part of your post that I find most intriguing is how variable is the total number of teams that have a positive WAB?

52 teams are are above a baseline that is designed to have the baseline be at #45 specifically. Is that just normal variability? Or due the the fact that there are 200 teams below 45 its just more likely that some of those will outperform and compared to the 44 that might underperform?
Hardworking, Unselfish, Fearless
JJxvi
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
If we beat Arkansas it will guarantee we end the season with at least 3 Quad I-A wins and probably 4 of them. There is no way we wouldnt get in based on almost solely that alone regardless of what our WAB is.
Hardworking, Unselfish, Fearless
bobinator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
This is what I mean on not really completely understanding the formulas involved and how they're derived.

Like last year 48 teams finished with a positive WAB. The 49th team had a negative WAB (-.12) and was team #45 in the NET, Xavier. And they made the tournament.

West Virginia had a WAB of .78, #43 in the WAB, but was #51 overall in the NET and did not make it.
Topher17
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Not sure I totally understand why the NCAA needed to create their own version of the WAB. Did they ever give a reason why they wouldn't just use Torvik's version?
bobinator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Again though, people always look at this as what we need to do, but what we need to do is a moving target based on what everyone else does.

We're a little lucky in that we can knock down Texas and Kentucky on our own. (Kentucky is kind of swimming in more dangerous waters than people realize, they'll probably still land the plane but if they were to sleep walk a game at South Carolina tomorrow they'd suddenly be in real trouble.)

The SEC teams and Big Ten teams have a chance to sort things out on their own. USC and UCLA still play each other twice. Ohio State and Indiana still play each other and Ohio State plays Iowa and Purdue.

But some of the other teams have to just post a number and pray basically. I think Santa Clara probably has to win at St. Mary's tomorrow or they're toast.
bobinator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Presumably because one of the fundamental tenets of the selection process is that all games count the same. You beat the #1 team on the first day of the season or the last day, those wins are theoretically the same. That's probably the thing that causes the single largest deltas between where teams fall in KenPom or Torvik versus where they fall in the NET.

Most other predictive metrics are going to weigh more recent games more heavily than games further in the past, but the NET doesn't. So an NCAA-approved WAB would need to also be based on that.
JJxvi
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
bobinator said:

This is what I mean on not really completely understanding the formulas involved and how they're derived.

Like last year 48 teams finished with a positive WAB. The 49th team had a negative WAB (-.12) and was team #45 in the NET, Xavier. And they made the tournament.

West Virginia had a WAB of .78, #43 in the WAB, but was #51 overall in the NET and did not make it.

West Virginia is the anomaly among anomalies though. They almost certainly were eliminated for reasons that had little to do with how every other team was picked.
Hardworking, Unselfish, Fearless
JJxvi
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Well, all the games count the same except for the part where they as a committee can mentally discard some of them, like maybe they could give all the credit for wins to the injured player instead of the team (even the ones he didnt play in...)
Hardworking, Unselfish, Fearless
Page 1 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.