Breaking Down the Big XII Logjam from a Bear.

2,422 Views | 34 Replies | Last: 18 yr ago by Faustus
Hurin
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Note 1: I'm a Baylor fan, and I'm posting this hoping for an outside viewpoint on what will end up happening (asside from a Baylor perspective). I've tried to keep this post as neutral as possible.

Alright, with everyone @ 4 games to play, we all know about the incredible logjam in the Big XII, so lets break it down. Caution, long @ss post. One other note of caution: the selection committe DOES NOT REPEAT DOES NOT look at conference affiliation when choosing schools for the tourney; each team stands alone. So far, we have 3 locks (UT, KSU, KU) in the dance. I don't think the Big XII puts 6 in, so at most we've got 2 open spots left.

As always, this is one man's opinion.

Firt off, lets assume that one of the top 4 teams will win the Big XII tournament (a safe assumption due to the first round bye) to take the automatic tourney spot. Given that ASSUMPTION, lets now look at schedules and possible outcomes. All of this does NOT include the Big XII tourney.

We currently have four teams at 6-6 (Baylor, A&M, OU, Tech), and even more amazing, THREE teams at 5-7 (Nebraska, Missou, OSU). That means that 7 teams are fighting for what would likely be 2 spots. It's vitaly important that a team finish well over its last 6 weeks, and particularly over the last 2-3.

Baylor (17-8, 6-6, RPI 34, SOS 30): Remaining schedule, @CU, Mizzou, A&M, @Tech. Baylor's current RPI is good, not great, and their SOS is fairly solid. However, the SOS will take a dip as our last 4 teams aren't lighting the building on fire. 10-6 is an obvious lock for anyone that makes it, but, IMO, 9-7 is only a lock if we clear out both A&M and Tech to cement our ability to play with teams that could make the tournament. A decent shot at the Big Dance, but by no means a lock. The BU/A&M game may end up being the play-in game instead of A&M/OU.

A&M (19-7, 6-6, RPI 47, SOS 78): Remaining schedule, Tech, @OU, @BU, Kansas. A murder's row. They matchup well with OU, and Tech doesn't play well on the road . . . but I can't see them winning more than 3 of these. I'd give A&M an equal shot at making the Big Dance w/ Baylor . . . A&M's RPI and SOS is weaker and they play a much tougher schedule than BU, but we all know this team can put together a streak.

OU (18-9, 6-6, RPI 28, SOS 6): Remaining schedule, @NU, A&M, @OSU, Missou. IMO, the most likely candidate to make the dance. While NU is playing better of late, they still aren't great. A&M beat them by more than the final score would suggest (60-52), but they do get A&M at home. OSU is playing lights out for the past few games. Missou sucks. Tough call, but I'll give them a 3-1 finish with a loss to either A&M or OSU and a spot in the dance. They've got enough big time wins to offset the SFA loss, and their SOS is out of this world. Also, their 3 game skid came with Longar Longar out due to injury, which is something the selection comittee does look at.

Tech (14-11, 6-6, RPI 56, SOS 8): Remaining schedule, @A&M, UT, @KU, BU. Even more difficult than A&M. Tech is mediocre on the road (1-5 in conference play, the one win coming @CU), so A&M and KU are losses. UT should win. Tough to see any way shape or form Tech manages 2 wins out of that 4 to even get to 8-8 in conference . . . I'd say one win tops out of those 4. Safest bet of the 4 teams at 6-6; Tech heads to the NIT.

Nebraska (16-9, 5-7, RPI 101, SOS 120): Remaining schedule, OU, @OSU, @UT, CU. At most they win 2 of those to get to 7-9. Not a threat.

Missou (15-12, 5-7, RPI 85, SOS 41): Remaining schedule, OSU, @BU, ISU, @OU. OSU is playing lights out right now, and they have Baylor on the road. That doesn't even cover the OU game . . . I don't think they can do it. They'd have to win 3 of 4 and get some Big XII tourney help to get in . . . not a threat.

OSU (13-12, 5-7, RPI 90, SOS 22): Remaining schedule, @Mizzou, NU, OU, @UT. The biggest threat to possibly make the dance . . . OSU has been playing LIGHTS OUT since the Baylor game, winning in college station and beating Kansas. However, even if they did win out to get to 9-7, they'd still only be at 17-12. They do have a signature win (Kansas), and they'd be riding a 7-0, 6-1 finish to the tourney. I could easily see them winning 3 of the last 4.

Conclusion: the remaining schedule definately eliminates Tech, Nebraska, Missou. OSU is riding a hot streak, but I'll trust the whorns to win the last game and that OSU will drop one they shouldn't, putting them at 7-9, possibly 8-8. That leaves OU, BU, and A&M to fight it out. While OU's schedule is tougher with the roadie at NU, @OSU and A&M, I think they can do it. Baylor is in a good (not great) position coming down the home stretch, as they easily have the clearest path for the final 4 games. A&M by far has the most difficult road to haul for the last two weeks.

Prediction: OU closes out at 2-2 to get to 8-8 (just a gut feeling that they aren't quite as good as their RPI would suggest), and the winner of the A&M/Baylor games closes out 3-1 while the loser closes 2-2. That would put the Baylor/A&M game winner, KU, KSU, UT in the dance, with all the teams at 8-8 needing to put some magic on display at the Big XII tourney to get an invite.

Thoughts on this overly long post?

Cooter00
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
the selection committe DOES NOT REPEAT DOES NOT look at conference affiliation when choosing schools for the tourney; each team stands alone. So far, we have 3 locks (UT, KSU, KU) in the dance. I don't think the Big XII puts 6 in, so at most we've got 2 open spots left.

I stopped reading here. If you are going to contradict yourself that fast, I figure the rest of what you have to say is garbage.
mhayden_original
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Not to mention to say that Kansas State is a "lock" to get in is jumping the gun.

If they lose to night and drop the game in Lawrence (where they will be heavy underdogs), then they are bubble city.
Hurin
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Lets look at KSU's remaining schedule.

KSU (17-8, 84, RPI 38, SOS 34): Remaining schedule, UT, @KU, CU, @ISU. Is there anyway they don't go 2-2 (barring an injury of course)? Even if they lose UT AND KU (I think they will lose at Allen), they'd still be 19-10, 10-6 in conference. They'd have to lose 3 of the last 4 to move to the bubble, and I just don't see them losing that many. KSU might not be a stone cold lead pipe lock, but lets get real; they are in the dance. Their SOS will take a jump into the top 30, and their RPI should hold steady around 35-30 (particularly if they beat UT). Add the fact that they have the best player in college basketball. They are in.

As to Cooter, I wasn't contradicting myself, I was simply trying to point out the fact that I don't think more than 5 teams from the Big XII will get in, because I don't see more than 5 teams finishing above .500 in conference. While the selection comittee does not look at conference affiliation, they do obviously look at how you faired in conference. What I meant by "not looking at conference affiliation" is best explained by Andy Katz, "The Selection comittee looks to see how you faired in conference play, but they don't look at two separate bubble teams and say, "This team went one game over .500 in the ACC while this one went one game over .500 in the Big 10. The ACC is tougher, so that team gets in". In situations like that, that's when a team's RPI comes into play. I apologize if I wasn't clear enough in my initial comments.

[This message has been edited by Hurin (edited 2/25/2008 3:48p).]
mhayden_original
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
Lets look at KSU's remaining schedule.

KSU (17-8, 84, RPI 38, SOS 34): Remaining schedule, UT, @KU, CU, @ISU. Is there anyway they don't go 2-2 (barring an injury of course)? Even if they lose UT AND KU (I think they will lose at Allen), they'd still be 19-10, 10-6 in conference. They'd have to lose 3 of the last 4 to move to the bubble, and I just don't see them losing that many. KSU might not be a stone cold lead pipe lock, but lets get real; they are in the dance.


Right now most major RPI calculations have them behind both Oklahoma and Baylor.

If K-State loses to Texas tonight and to Kansas in Lawrence, then their resume consists of *ONE* win over a Top 50 RPI team (Kansas at home) and only *TWO* road wins the entire year (Colorado and a buzzer beater in Norman).

Also, to say that its unrealistic to think they could lose @ Iowa State? Again, only TWO road wins this year.

If they lose the next two, their resume come tourney time is very, very underwhelming.

The NCAA will take an 8-8 Oklahoma, Baylor or Texas A&M over a 9-7 Kansas State. (Or a 9-7 Oklahoma/Baylor/TexasA&M over a 10-6 Kansas State).


[This message has been edited by mhayden (edited 2/25/2008 3:51p).]
dcaggie04
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Let's assume OU beats NU and MU and A&M beats ttu and OU. OU would have a higher RPI and SOS and have 5 or so quality wins. A&M will have a decent rpi, two head to head victories against OU and a top 10 rpi win.

It will be interesting to see what the committee where the committee will put more emphasis: rpi and SOS or quality wins and head to head.
Faustus
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I usually think your posts a spot on, mhayden. However I think a 9-7 KSU team (or 10-6) gets in over another 8-8 (or 9-7) Big 12 team.

That being said, I think an 8-8 team (as long as it's Baylor, OU, or A&M) gets in this year too.
mhayden_original
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I think you're looking too much at records and not enough at resumes.

What about Kansas State has impressed you this year? They've played a cupcake schedule, played very few road games (and lost most of the ones they've played) and have just one impressive win (in Manhattan).
Jason Stegent
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Hey Hurin,

We're 20-6, you turd. Get it right.
rhutton125
How long do you want to ignore this user?
K-state's getting in. Everyone's too in love with Beasley to NOT see what he can do in March, and with good reason.
FDXAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
20-7...might want to get your facts straight yourself before you blast someone
Hurin
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Jason . . . I guess I'm confused.

RealTime RPI has A&M at 19-7, with losses to Zona, Tech, Baylor, K-State, UT, OSU, Nebraska.

That's seven.

I guess I'd have to say I'm just confused.

EDIT: OK, I just checked the schedules, and A&M is 20-7 including a win over Ouachita Baptist. The selection committe does not count wins over non-Division I opponents (Baylor has one win over a non-DI team as well), so that's why I had A&M at 19-7.

[This message has been edited by Hurin (edited 2/25/2008 4:32p).]
Faustus
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I think having a star like Beasley helps (although it arguably shouldn't), and KSU will have victories over A&M, OU, and KU to point to when comparing bubble teams.

In non-conference they only have the win over Cal, but I think having a better conference record in the Big 12 will give them the nod over a team with a worse record.

The RPI (37) and SOS (26) should remain strong with games left against KU and UT.

However it wouldn't be the first time a Big 12 school with a better conference record was eschewed by the committee for a team with a worse conference record.
stestro
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Hurin: you have to understand, some like Jason are in denial about the UT game, so they only count 6 losses. Didn't lose, just ran out of time, etc.
LouisvilleAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Hurin, good post from an outsider.

I don't think many A&M fans can handle anyone from a non-A&M school giving, in what I consider, the truth.

KSU is a lock along with KU and tu. There is no way they will keep the Naismith player of the year out of the tourney. They may end up at worst an 8 seed, but are definitely a lock.

I believe the 12 will get six in. Anyone with an 8-8 record and one win in the tourney gets in. This means that BU, A&M, and OU will have to get to atleast 8-8.

Predicted order of finish

Texas
Kansas
Kansas St. (10-6)
Oklahoma (9-7)
Baylor (9-7)
Texas A&M (8-8)

Oklahoma State (7-9)
Texas Tech
Nebraska
Missouri
Colorado
Iowa State

That being said, here are the predicted seeds in the B12 tourney and the playout of it:

1. Texas
2. Kansas
3. Kansas State
4. Oklahoma
First Round
5. Baylor vs. 12. Iowa State
6. Texas A&M vs. 11. Colorado
7. Oklahoma State vs. Missouri
8. Texas Tech vs. 9. Nebraska

Second Round
1. Texas vs. Nebraska
4. Oklahoma vs. Baylor

2. Kansas vs Oklahoma St.
3. Kansas St. vs. Texas A&M

Semifinals
Texas vs. Baylor
Kansas vs. Texas A&M

Finals
Texas vs. Kansas

Predicted March Madness Seeds
Texas No. 1
Kansas No. 2
A&M No. 6
Baylor No. 7
Kansas State No. 7
Oklahoma No. 8

NIT Teams
Oklahoma State
Nebraska

Tech and Missouri are bubble teams for NIT.

By the way, I see A&M playing Kentucky in the tourney first round!
mhayden_original
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
KSU is a lock along with KU and tu. There is no way they will keep the Naismith player of the year out of the tourney. They may end up at worst an 8 seed, but are definitely a lock.



That "lock" now sits with a #42 RPI that isn't going to get much better.

Baylor, Oklahoma and (with a win on Wednesday) Texas A&M all have a better RPI than Kansas State.

I know you guys have seen Kansas State ranked, and I know you guys have seen Kansas State knock off Kansas -- but really take a look at their schedule. Only one big win, an easy schedule, and only two road wins (Colorado and Oklahoma buzzer beater).

I think Kansas State makes the tournament, but to call them a "lock" is being foolish.
LouisvilleAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
mhayden, read further down in the post.

I said they are a lock. They are! There is no way they don't make it in.

There RPI and schedule make them a seven seed or eight seed.

Dean Learner
How long do you want to ignore this user?
It will be interesting to see how it plays out. A&M controls its destiny and can solidify itself as a four (or even third if ksu continues to tank) or fall all the way to eight or worse.
bigbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
go to a circus if you want to see a dancing bear
BBDP
How long do you want to ignore this user?
NM



[This message has been edited by BBDP (edited 2/26/2008 10:09a).]
CyAg08
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Honest Question?

Does no one else think that a 10-6 or 9-7 K-State makes it over 8-8 or 9-7 TAMU/Gaylor?

I think they do STRICTLY because of Beasley and Walker! If two players like that on one team that is close to the Tourney, I can almost guarantee that they would take a team like that. People want to see players with that kind of talent...Not to mention, they can be the playmakers in close games, which is what the tourney is all about.
squirrelhunter
How long do you want to ignore this user?
mhayden, I am pretty sure the slection committe will not leave out a 10-6 team for a 9-7 or 8-8 one.

Actually, I am certain 8-8 is out. I don't care what the conference RPI ratings say, the Big 12 lacks the respect accorded to the SEC or Big East, so I would say that the NCAA will only take teams 9-7 and above from the Big 12. No 8-8 team has ever gotten in from this conference and they have left out 10 win teams before.

If that ends up being 4 teams, it ends up being 4 teams.

KU, tu, KSU and one or two of Baylor, A&M and OU will be going.
mhayden_original
How long do you want to ignore this user?
8-8 may be out.

But I'm saying right now if Kansas State does not beat Kansas in Lawrence that A&M, OU or Baylor will get the tourney with one less conference win than Kansas State.

Kansas State has done *nothing* this year.
Cooter00
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Louisville - Step away from the crack pipe if you think an 8-8 A&M team would get into the NCAA tourney as a 6 seed.
houstontexan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
hayden, you do have to admit to the lure of getting beasley in the dance.
mhayden_original
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
hayden, you do have to admit to the lure of getting beasley in the dance.


I do, and I'm not saying Kansas State will be "left out" -- I just think that even if the committee gives the nod to both, a OU/A&M/Baylor is going to get a higher seed than a Kansas State.

Wildcats lose in Lawrence and it wouldn't shock me if they lose @ Iowa State.
RDV-1992
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Interesting thread. Hope we win out & make it all academic (re: whether or not we get into the tourney).
LouisvilleAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Cooter, that crack is good. You should try it!
RDV-1992
How long do you want to ignore this user?
New thoughts on this thread (and the rankings in this thread) based on the last few games?
polish german
How long do you want to ignore this user?
new thoughts?

the big 12 south is still the dominant division, and it's actually hurting KSU again this year (like last year getting left out)

the big 12 as a whole would be better off for a real conference schedule.
LouisvilleAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Same as my post before, although A&M could be 9-7 now.
texasjeremy
How long do you want to ignore this user?
If K-State doesn't win in Lawrence and Baylor holds serve at home again Missouri, the Bears move into the #3 spot on Saturday.
jphelmet
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
But I'm saying right now if Kansas State does not beat Kansas in Lawrence that A&M, OU or Baylor will get the tourney with one less conference win than Kansas State.


no way. ksu beat ou @ ou, and killed a&m. no way either ou or us gets in with one more conference loss than ksu. if ksu beats cu and iowa st. they are in.




AggieBill005
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
I don't think the Big XII puts 6 in


I think people will be really surprised when we get 6 in. Other strong conferences get that many, and the Big 12 has consistently been among the strongest conferences this year.

If we cant get 6 in this year, then it will flat out NEVER happen.
Hornographer
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Assuming Kansas State only wins against Colorado in their remaining schedule, a big factor the committee will look at beyond 9-7 is the fact that they finished the season 1-5. If that's the case, I could see an 8-8 team that finished strong getting in over them, although having Beasley will make it tough to do so. It seems to me that one or two Big XII tourney bids will be decided in the Big XII tournament because it's going to be so close for 2-4 teams. Should be fun.
Page 1 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.