Question About Joining the Military

3,718 Views | 27 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by CharlieBrown17
TexagChris17
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I have been looking at enlisting in the Air Force or the Army. I graduated a year ago with a degree in supply chain management, and I have been working for a defense contractor since then. However, I have always had the itch to join the military- the Air Force specifically, but I'm also open to the Army. I asked my recruiter about OTS, and she said that if I got accepted I wouldn't have a spot until 2020 (I've heard this from other recruiters as well) so that option is out. Which is fine with me, I think enlisting would be a good option.

My problem though is trying to find a job that matches my goals. I want to get some solid project management/operations management experience out of serving. In the Air Force I've been looking at logistics plans, weather, and maintenance management analysis. On the Army side I've been looking at aviation operations specialist (15P) and transportation management coordantor (88N.)

I was wondering if any of you could provide some insight on if youknow of any jobs that meet the criteria I am looking for? I'd also appreciate any general advise about joining. Thank you for any feedback.
LewisChilds
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How long do you plan on serving?
TexagChris17
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I'm thinking just four years
TexagChris17
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Fly Army 97
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I recommend looking at OCS and become a logistician if you plan (for now) to serve four years. As a 15P you will spend the first three years learning the basics of operations and execution of a system, but you won't get much actual leadership experience (generally speaking).

Junior LT loisticians get a ton of experience in real world logistics, sustainment, and leadership between the two. They are, in my opinion, very marketable after serving their commitment - especially to graduate schools who value leadership experience that dealt with supply chains, fleet management, etc.

Aggie1
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Be careful your wording.
"Enlisting" denotes airman, Sergeant, NON-commissioned officers, etc., and NOT commissioned officers.
Nothing wrong with being an enlisted troop - but the pay sucks!!

When I went from TSgt to 2Lt my pay doubled and all of a sudden I went from having respectability and responsibility to zip as everyone thinks 2 looies are dumbasses because of their butter bars and lack of experience...

But that changed with time...
AAAAAAAAAAg - Air Force Aggie Architect and Hospital Administrator fm Amarillo, Altus, Austin, Arabia, Arkansas, Africa, Seoul, Bahrain, Amman, Kuwait, Iraq, Iran, Saudi, DFW-Fairview, Ramstein, San Antonio, Pentagon, OKC, JCAHO/JCR - '65, '69, '73 - A&M Letterman (ret).
Winston Churchill: “If you’re not a socialist in your twenties, you have no heart. But if you’re not a capitalist in your thirties, you have no mind.”
Swing Your Saber
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I agree w/the above.

The military is a great choice for a litany of reasons; however, based on your post, you are very unlikely to get the leadership experience you desire from four years enlisted in a logistics field. As an officer you would get significant leadership & relevant experience starting on your first day. OCS is your best option.

The downside is as an AD (Active Duty) OCS candidate (in your position) you cannot guarantee your branch (job). It will be needs of the service. Some specific & specialized fields (law, medicine, clergy, etc...) can guarantee branch, but a general junior officer logistician is not among them. That said, logisticians are typically easy branches to obtain. Further, you can change branches after a few years.

Reserves & National Guard have some programs that can guarantee officer branch choice.

Any officer career path will give you relevant leadership experience & universities/employers love it.

I worked in joint recruiting (all services) in one of my final assignments before I retired. My information may be a little dated, but is probably current.
74OA
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Agree with above. As a junior enlisted, you are very unlikely to gain work experience and responsibility which materially builds on your college degree and significantly adds to your resume for future civilian employment. As a junior officer, very much the opposite.

That's why there's such a significant pay difference, too.
Presley OBannons Sword
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Or just join the Marines and become a ****ing killer.
Hey Nav
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Quote:

I want to get some solid project management/operations management experience out of serving.
If this is what you really want, apply for OTS. Enlisting, while incredibly honorable and valuable to our nation, will not meet your stated goal. (DO NOT believe anything a recruiter tells you about this subject.)

2020 is just around the corner. Start Grad School in the meantime, as that "block to fill" is so important - you never know - you may like it and want to stay

Quote:

Or just join the Marines and become a ****ing killer.

This is very good advice, too, but they want you to run a lot and the food is not as good.
Presley OBannons Sword
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JABQ04
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Presley OBannons Sword said:

Or just join the Marines and become a ****ing killer.


champagnepapi
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TexagChris17 said:

I have been looking at enlisting in the Air Force or the Army. I graduated a year ago with a degree in supply chain management, and I have been working for a defense contractor since then. However, I have always had the itch to join the military- the Air Force specifically, but I'm also open to the Army. I asked my recruiter about OTS, and she said that if I got accepted I wouldn't have a spot until 2020 (I've heard this from other recruiters as well) so that option is out. Which is fine with me, I think enlisting would be a good option.

My problem though is trying to find a job that matches my goals. I want to get some solid project management/operations management experience out of serving. In the Air Force I've been looking at logistics plans, weather, and maintenance management analysis. On the Army side I've been looking at aviation operations specialist (15P) and transportation management coordantor (88N.)

I was wondering if any of you could provide some insight on if youknow of any jobs that meet the criteria I am looking for? I'd also appreciate any general advise about joining. Thank you for any feedback.


You will definitely want to go the OCS option and become a 2LT. I was 23 years old and was in charge of 46 men and planned everything we did. Y'all about project management. I graduated Mays with a degree in Supply Chain Management back in 2012 and commissioned that summer through ROTC. Nothing wrong with enlisting but I guarantee you will not get the project operational aspect of planning and the leader of a project.

The Army gave me Infantry. It has been a great experience so far.
TexagChris17
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Thanks for all the responses guys. I'm not adverse to going enlisted, but if going officer helps me achieve my goals, then it will probably be best for me to wait for OTS.
kbw01
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As an 88N you will not be managing any projects. You will be managing computer systems and data entry or working in a yard tagging shipment for ground sea or air. A four year enlistment will not get you tangible experience in a quantifiable way. Even as an officer your greatest experience will be in leadership. Veterans are valued for their dedication and work ethic.
kbw01
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If you really hustled you might make Staff Sergeant as an 88N, more than likely Sergeant. There would be some leadership experience gained. Of course there is also the likelihood that the First Sergeant sees you have a degree and you end up as the orderly room clerk.
AggieEP
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Lots of negative opinions in here on enlisted leadership experiences made me want to jump into this conversation ready to fight, but it looks like most/all of them are coming from an Army background so I'll let it slide.

I enlisted in the Air Force 7.5 years ago on a 4 year enlistment to get experience after graduating and not finding the job I wanted out of A&M and it's been a great choice that continues to pay dividends for me.

What I will say, is that you need to research any specialty you are looking at going into extensively and try to find out what they do at different levels of experience. In the Air Force we have public documents called CFETP's (Career Field Education and Training Plan's) that detail all the skills you'll learn in a certain job. Some of them are jargony, but others should let you know approximately what you'd be doing. Also find an E-5 in that field (have your recruiter do his job and hook you up with one to talk with) and get the real story from them.

As an E-4 1.5 years into my service I was delivering briefings in the NSA situation room on my target, as an E-5 at 3.5 years I was managing the education and training of 100 multi service language professionals and as an E-6 at 6 years I was helping make MAJCOM policy on linguist recruiting/retainability and progression for the professional linguists I took care of.

So I feel like I've had quite a bit of experience managing already, while still having the ability to engage in operations.

That being said, the officers do technically "make the decisions" and assume the risk (current buzzword) for the recommendations the enlisted make to them, so their is value in that experience.

Also, I'm biased because I love my job, and it is admittedly a bit of an outlier because our officers (14N's) generally are not language trained and can't do our job.
Fly Army 97
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AggieEP said:

Lots of negative opinions in here on enlisted leadership experiences ...

As an E-4 1.5 years into my service I was delivering briefings in the NSA situation room on my target, as an E-5 at 3.5 years I was managing the education and training of 100 multi service language professionals and as an E-6 at 6 years I was helping make MAJCOM policy on linguist recruiting/retainability and progression for the professional linguists I took care of.

That being said, the officers do technically "make the decisions" and assume the risk (current buzzword) for the recommendations the enlisted make to them, so their is value in that experience.

Also, I'm biased because I love my job, and it is admittedly a bit of an outlier because our officers (14N's) generally are not language trained and can't do our job.

Interesting job. That said, I'm not sure I concur with the above being negative opinions vs facts. Specifically to the two MOSs he is describing and his goals. They are facts. In four years as a flight operations specialist, a Soldier does not see very much in terms of operational leadership, if any at all. I'd argue there is a slight difference in operational management vs direct personnel management (I'm not using the term leadership here intentionally). At 3.5 years, I'd be surprised if you were executing the training that was provided to you vs creating the education trainees are supposed to receive. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's a decent assumption.

The difference I believe my opinion will convey is that an an officer (most factors being equal), one will create more plans, manage operations, and lead troops in four years than one will in four-five as an enlisted would, regardless of MOS. That said, logistics officers carry more up-front experience forward in their roles as officers (with OJT) than other specialties. On the norm, the advice young officers are seeking to make decisions/plans tend to be from those with around 5-15 years experience in their roles - that's beyond the time frame the OP is looking to serve Yes, as a platoon leader I often sought counsel from my awesome specialists (even as a battalion commander), but on the norm, it was NCOs.
AggieEP
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I am definitely no expert on the army, but I see a bit clearer where you are coming from on the timeline aspect. If he only serves 4 years, that would potentially limit the kinds of leadership opportunities he'd have as an enlisted service member. Most of my options opened up at about the 3.5 year mark when I put on E-5.

I just wanted to put at least one counter argument out there in favor of the enlisted route because it has really worked out for me. Especially because commissioning isn't exactly a walk in the park and as the OP mentioned sometimes means an extremely lengthy wait.

I applied to OTS in 2009 and was turned down and have had my command ask me every year since I enlisted if I would like them to help me put together another packet and apply again, and every year I have respectfully declined. Enlisted life in the Air Force is pretty good and honestly fits with my personality a bit better than being an officer would have. I'm a teacher by nature and I really enjoy mentoring and training all the new folks I get a chance to mold.

EXTRA INFO - It's one of my personal crusades that I've been working with AF Recruiting Services to re-examine how they market their enlisted opportunities in order to attract more candidates like the OP who are college graduates looking for experience. Not that there is anything wrong with the candidates we currently get, I just strongly believe there is a large untapped pool of candidates who would jump at the chance to spend 4-6 years serving their country if they were a little more aware of some of the awesome opportunities out there.

My career for example:
2010 - Enlist
2011 - Awarded TS/SCI Clearance
2012 - Graduate First Language Course at DLI in Monterey
2012 - Graduate Second Language Course at DLI (now making $800.00/month in language pay)
2013 - Graduate Crypto Intel School
2013-2014 Work at NSA
2014-2016 Instruct foreign language at DLI
2017 - Manage Language training pipeline students and military faculty training DLI
2018 - Currently learning my third language in order to target a specific adversary using all 3 languages (plus my French from college) (oh and now I'll be up to $1000.00/month in language pay)

Every CLA doesn't have the luck that I've had, but I believe that I make my own luck in some ways.
Fly Army 97
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Interesting path. I'm curious what that means for you at the 15 year mark. Do you still work in that area of expertise? Many of our UAS operators don't operate their systems as platoon sergeants, so when one looks at the opportunity to operate UAS on the outside, they often take the jump, but they are a very technical field so lots of debate going on there.
AggieEP
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My career field faces similar challenges. We spend a ton of time and money training (plus we have 6-week refreshers annually for our primary languages) and then by the time you've produced a top notch operator you have E-6's and E-7's who are being asked to do a lot of administrative work. So we lose a lot of our top guys to the agencies as contractors or civilian employees because they prefer to operate rather than administrate. That's part of the reason I took the opportunity to learn another language, it should guarantee me one more operational assignment before I face that dilemma.

The lucky E-7's are able to still operate, but at E-8 (where I'd probably be at around 15-16 years if I continue at the current pace of promotions) I would be spending little to no time touching mission and would be purely administrative.

It's honestly one of the huge drawbacks overall of being in the military. The best analogy I can put out there for others, is to imagine if the Lakers put LeBron James in the front office instead of letting him play because of his past achievements. They would tell him that this is an ultimate honor for him to be "promoted" into this very important position, but LeBron and all of his other teammates would question why upper management would take away their best on court asset while he was still very capable of impacting the mission as a player.

I would assume officers face the same challenges once they start to reach the level of experience when they begin to be tabbed as company and larger commanders because it means leaving behind their specializations to a certain extent.

edit- this is why you have a lot of middle enlisted in my field clamoring for warrant officer positions, it would give us an opportunity to advance and continue to serve while not having to take the administrative route.
Complaint Investigator
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Do not go 15P. It will not help you on the civilian side, and you'll be stuck at a desk being the individual who hands out goggles, updates CAFRS etc. It will do you no good anywhere else.

15T - if you like working with your hands. Do well enough, and you can fly as a crew chief. Get your A&P, go work on military aircraft as a contractor and make money.
Noblemen06
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If you commission in the Air Force as a 21A (Aircraft Maintenance), 21M (Munitions & Missile Maintenance), or 21R (Logistics Readiness), you'll likely be getting pretty much everything you're looking for. The Air Force puts 2d Lts in those career fields into flight command/AMU(Aircraft Maintenance Unit) OIC rather quickly where you'll drink through a fire hose in the realms of managing resources and leading people.

I've been a 21M for more than 12 years now and my first four years were stints as a flight commander (three occasions) and a period of being an accountable officer for almost $2B in nuclear weapons (which is more than just a nice resume line...lots of work). I was the flight commander for 192 people as a 1st Lt, running conventional munitions operations for a B-52 wing...point being, there are tons of opportunities in the Air Force to learn the ropes orchestrating the integration of logistics systems at an early point in your career while gaining a real understanding of leadership & supervision (two different skillsets, though symbiotic) that can give you a solid foundation for your future; all while having a real impact on mission generation. You'd have similar opportunities as a 21A or 21R.
Noblemen06
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If commissioning is out of the question, I seriously think you should consider the 2W0 career field. Our munitions (AMMO) career field is probably the most all-encompassing logistics career field in the Air Force because, unlike other maintenance and logistics enlisted career fields, it does everything: supply, maintenance, vehicle fleet management & maintenance, scheduling, warehousing, accountability, inspections, safety, deployment planning, and munitions assembly (among many other things). The aircraft maintenance enterprise and logistics readiness communities are more compartmentalized into separate career fields that work together to make those missions happen; though, they all offer great opportunities for development and advancement. Add to that, USAF AMMO has a distinct, brother/sisterhood culture that reminds me a lot of being a part of the Aggie family...unique among Airmen, to say the least.

I've worked with maintainers and logisticians from all of the services in a couple of different Joint assignments and I've always left them supremely impressed with what the Air Force does in developing our 2W0s...they do so much at an early stage in their careers (E-3/E-4 timeframe) that gives them such a deep, useful logistics foundation, that I'd take my enlisted AMMO troops as E-6s/E-7s over their warrant officer counterparts in other services any day (no offense to our brethren in the Army/Marines/Navy ordnance communities).
StrangeLuv
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Enlisting in the military after graduating college is akin to graduating medical school only to become a nurse. Wait on the OTS spot. Junior enlisted are broke... dead broke.
AggieEP
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StrangeLuv said:

Enlisting in the military after graduating college is akin to graduating medical school only to become a nurse. Wait on the OTS spot. Junior enlisted are broke... dead broke.

This has to be one of the most clueless posts I've ever seen. I own a house with $200k in equity ($507k purchase price), and three cars (2016 Chevrolet SS Sedan, 2013 Boss 302 Mustang, 2016 Ford Explorer Sport) with titles in hand for all three. Officers think that junior enlisted are broke, because junior enlisted do stupid crap with their money (like buy a race car I didn't need) but the truth is that you make more than enough money as an enlisted service member to have a good life.

In today's military, enlisted (even at the Junior'ish ranks of E-3 and E-4) are compensated well and have tons of benefits. BAH is tax free and health care is FREE. Those are two secret augmentations to military pay that the base pay chart doesn't show you. Of course officers make more money, they also do a job I have no interest in doing . I'm an operator on the cutting edge of killing/capturing bad guys and I love it.

Oh, and my wife is a nurse, and makes a metric **** ton of money doing that job as well. Her take home was over $130k last year while mine, you can see the break down below. (I've been in for 7 years now)

Name: TSGT Broke .... Dead Broke
PERSONAL STATEMENT OF MILITARY COMPENSATION
This statement outlines the total value of your military pay, allowances and benefit. By making your compensation more "visible," this statement can be useful when applying for credit or loans (including home loans). Another way this summary can be used is to help determine whether specific civilian employment offers would allow you to maintain the same standard of living as serving in the military. Start with the Total Direct Compensation on page 1, add the Federal Tax advantage from page 2, and then add any additional expense a civilian employer would expect you to pay for, such as health and life insurance, retirement contributions, etc. This will tell you the approximate level of civilian salary you must earn in order to maintain a similar standard of living as that provided by your military take home pay. Each section of this statement contains an explanation. However, if you have any questions, please contact your local finance office.
Summary
A. Basic Military Compensation as of March 2018 $80,219.88 (Basic Pay+BAH+BAS)
B. Special Pay and Bonuses $9,600.00 (Foreign Language Pay)
C. Expense Allowances $360.24 (Uniform Allowance)
TOTAL DIRECT COMPENSATION $90,180.12

For Comparison here are my totals from earlier in my enlistment pulled from the same PSMC
2012 - $47,280.48
2013 - $50,894.04
(not as much but still not bad in my opinion)
______________________

There are a lot of things to criticize about being enlisted vs. officer, but it's patently false to state that we're broke. I make 90k (+free health insurance) with a BA&MA in History, I don't think I could do any better on the outside. As I stated earlier, one of my crusades is to get more college graduates enlisting, and part of that is to correct stupid stereotypes about enlisted life/pay.
Complaint Investigator
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AggieEP said:

StrangeLuv said:

Enlisting in the military after graduating college is akin to graduating medical school only to become a nurse. Wait on the OTS spot. Junior enlisted are broke... dead broke.

This has to be one of the most clueless posts I've ever seen. I own a house with $200k in equity ($507k purchase price), and three cars (2016 Chevrolet SS Sedan, 2013 Boss 302 Mustang, 2016 Ford Explorer Sport) with titles in hand for all three. Officers think that junior enlisted are broke, because junior enlisted do stupid crap with their money (like buy a race car I didn't need) but the truth is that you make more than enough money as an enlisted service member to have a good life.

In today's military, enlisted (even at the Junior'ish ranks of E-3 and E-4) are compensated well and have tons of benefits. BAH is tax free and health care is FREE. Those are two secret augmentations to military pay that the base pay chart doesn't show you. Of course officers make more money, they also do a job I have no interest in doing . I'm an operator on the cutting edge of killing/capturing bad guys and I love it.

Oh, and my wife is a nurse, and makes a metric **** ton of money doing that job as well. Her take home was over $130k last year while mine, you can see the break down below. (I've been in for 7 years now)

Name: TSGT Broke .... Dead Broke
PERSONAL STATEMENT OF MILITARY COMPENSATION
This statement outlines the total value of your military pay, allowances and benefit. By making your compensation more "visible," this statement can be useful when applying for credit or loans (including home loans). Another way this summary can be used is to help determine whether specific civilian employment offers would allow you to maintain the same standard of living as serving in the military. Start with the Total Direct Compensation on page 1, add the Federal Tax advantage from page 2, and then add any additional expense a civilian employer would expect you to pay for, such as health and life insurance, retirement contributions, etc. This will tell you the approximate level of civilian salary you must earn in order to maintain a similar standard of living as that provided by your military take home pay. Each section of this statement contains an explanation. However, if you have any questions, please contact your local finance office.
Summary
A. Basic Military Compensation as of March 2018 $80,219.88 (Basic Pay+BAH+BAS)
B. Special Pay and Bonuses $9,600.00 (Foreign Language Pay)
C. Expense Allowances $360.24 (Uniform Allowance)
TOTAL DIRECT COMPENSATION $90,180.12

For Comparison here are my totals from earlier in my enlistment pulled from the same PSMC
2012 - $47,280.48
2013 - $50,894.04
(not as much but still not bad in my opinion)
______________________

There are a lot of things to criticize about being enlisted vs. officer, but it's patently false to state that we're broke. I make 90k (+free health insurance) with a BA&MA in History, I don't think I could do any better on the outside. As I stated earlier, one of my crusades is to get more college graduates enlisting, and part of that is to correct stupid stereotypes about enlisted life/pay.

That's a lot in BAH! I don't think it's fair to lump it in for BMC unless you add in your zip code. You wouldn't get that much here in Austin. Base pay for an E6 with 8 years is $41K and change - that's from federal pay charts.

I'm not trying to poo poo on being enlisted - I did that before going the warrant route.
Noblemen06
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For a recent college grad that wants to gain experience for four years and get out, enlisting isn't a bad call. I've had more than a handful of young Airmen come through my units with bachelors degrees that were stellar troops while also making the most of their time in the military. Hard to deny the compensation in the form of TA for a masters, technical training, and "see the world" that comes with enlisting now vs waiting two years for OTS. Plus, once you're in with stripes, there are commissioning programs available to you that Jonny off the Street doesn't have access to.
CharlieBrown17
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E6 also isn't exactly junior enlisted.

Was just joking with a prior E O-1 that was an E-5 in EOD before OTS about the pay cut he was taking to come over to the officer side.

The junior enlisted stereotype is just that, a stereotype. But it has some solid roots in the real world too, lots of dumb purchases by e-2-4 that don't make jack especially ones stuck in the dorm not either building equity in a house or pocketing left over BAH.

Lots of Lts with poor money skills too but they also make a little more money so it hides a little better.
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