OK, forgive my ignorance on this topic but I need your advice. An 11th grade student of mine is strongly considering joining the Marines. I mentioned the Corps to him as a possible route and he seemed interested in knowing more. My dad and two older brothers were in, but none pursued a commission. I'd like to pass along to my student your advice on the pros and cons of taking the Corps route over just graduating high school and going straight to basic training. Why should he or shouldn't he go the Corps route. Thanks a lot for your input.

[This message has been edited by Teacher_Ag (edited 4/7/2014 5:27p).]

First off, if he goes the Corps route he will be getting a top quality advanced education.

Second, if he successfuly completes the NROTC course at A&M, he will enter the Marines as a 2LT instead of a buck private.

Third: He will make life long friends in the Corps.

[This message has been edited by DevilD77 (edited 4/3/2014 10:57a).]

[This message has been edited by DevilD77 (edited 4/3/2014 10:59a).]

^

So then, what are to pros of going straight to basic instead of the Corps?

If a student is not prepared for college life, enlistment could give them time to mature and take responsibility for their own life.

Basically, if you can't discipline yourself to study, go to class, and not get wasted every night, maybe a couple more years of having someone tell you what to do is a good thing.

Good point. In this kid's case, I feel pretty confident that he'd be a good fit for the Corps. I can think back to most of my brothers' buddies and this student is more mature than some of them that managed to stay in and graduate.

I can understand that he probably feels like he'd like to "leap into action" right away rather than entering college while doing ROTC, but I hope he'll at least consider the two options.

A general question for the Marines on here:

Do the Marines allow a recruit to choose his/her MOS like the Army does?

Does a Marine Officer get to choose their career field?

It would be worth researching the projected need of ROTC officers in 4 years. With the drawdown and the general trend toward "aging" the current population, the pool of ROTC scholarships might dwindle (or it might not).

If it was me, I'd enlist first and then go to college later. He'll get GI bill money and appreciate the opportunities provided by college more later (in theory). You can always go back to college, you can't always enlist later.

Here are my feelings based on working with a few guys who enlisted in the USMC straight out of HS. The most successful of the lot is the guy who currently runs my organization. He spent 4-8 years (he told me but I forgot the exact details) as an Active Duty Marine and then went to work for my company about 20 years ago and has worked his way up to manage an organization of probably 1500 people (within a 50,000+ multi-national company). Another one manages an organization of 25 people. And the last guy who comes to mind manages about 7 people. And then, I have a cousin who is a police officer.

Part of what matters in my opinion is what military occupation they choose. The first two guys were Artillery, the last guy was Intelligence and my cousin was Infantry.

In all 4 of those cases, I can say that those guys can accomplish a mission. They will hit the wall as hard as you want them to hit it and come hell or high water, they will break through.

However, they may never understand why you want them to break through that wall and they might never figure out that they could have walked 50 ft. further south and gone around the wall instead of going through it. Yeah, sure that's a bit of a generalization but it is a recurring theme that I've observed with former USMC enlisted guys. Extremely hard workers but might never "get it" - they will keep trying though.

By going through "The Corps of Cadets" at Texas A&M, your HS student will have the opportunity to get an education while also learning about leadership from a cadre who have been there and know how to teach others to do the same. I guess, in short he/she will get the opportunity to understand the big picture.

Serving as an officer after graduation/commissioning, they will have a significant amount of responsibility thrust on them and they will have the opportunity to accept that challenge and thrive. I guess it's just kind of a bigger scope too. As an enlisted Marine, they'll have a lot of responsibility and they'll have good camaraderie with their buddies. They'll get that kind of experience in the Corps of Cadets at A&M. When they finally make it to the USMC as an officer, they'll be prepared to lead the mission. They'll be the one who gets to decide if the troops have to break through the wall or if they can accomplish the mission better by going around the wall or over it.

Enlisting in the USMC can be a great start for somebody who needs the extra motivation or for somebody who just isn't cut out for college. But, if they decide to go the officer route and go to college and participate in ROTC, they'll be further ahead in their mid-20s but they'll be able to make more of their opportunities in the future.

Example, the guy who runs my 1,500 person organization. No college, enlisted Marine who did Artillery (I think) and then went over to Force Recon (I don't fully understand how some of the USMC units work). This guy is really physical and loves physical training. But, I've had several conversations with him and it is quite obvious that he knows nothing about leadership, development of people and alternate means of accomplishing the mission. So, my organization is continuing to hit the wall. We're hitting it harder and harder and we're still not getting through. I've proposed alternate strategies to this guy and gotten nowhere. It took me a while to realize that one of the reasons I'm never going to get anywhere with this guy at the helm is because he has never had the leadership training that an officer would have received. And he wasn't enlisted long enough to receive the training that a senior NCO would have received. So, my organization is going nowhere and we continue to have a high attrition rate because people get tired and frustrated with continuing to hit the wall without being able to breakthrough.

My colleague who manages the 25 person organization, he's smarter, he at least attempted college for a couple years before enlisting in the USMC. But he still has the same limitation of only looking at solving a problem through a small number of options. He lacks the ability to take a clean sheet approach or consider completely alternative ways to solve a problem. He does OK but he could do much better.

My former colleague who managed the 7 person organization - he had been in Intelligence and frankly, he's just a little crazy too. This guy is a master conspiracy theorist and he's smart enough and has just enough credibility to make all kinds of stuff seem believable from Pearl Harbor to JFK to 9/11, he's got a conspiracy for everything. In his case, he ran a tight ship so to speak but, again, his organization had a finite number of options and wasn't very adaptable.

So, I think it really depends on what your student is after. Great work ethic, buddies who will be friends for life, hard-charging macho service opportunities (Force Recon), etc. Enlisting is a great option. Problem solving ability, college education, the responsibility for leadership and development of subordinates, I'd go the Corps of Cadets plus ROTC route.

But, keep in mind, I'm an Army ROTC Scholarship graduate of Texas A&M with an Engineering degree who currently manages 4 of the top performers in an organization of 1500 people who report up the chain to a guy who spent 4 years enlisted in the USMC and who has no college degree. So, you can play the percentages but you never know what the future results will be. I'd argue that The Corps of Cadets + ROTC will put those percentages in your favor most of the time.

I was fortunate to have an NROTC scholarship when I arrived at Texas A&M but had I not, I would have enlisted with the benefit of hindsight and then used my GI Bill to go to college. I should offer the disclaimer that I am in my 24th year of active duty in the Marine Corps.

If my kids were graduating in high school and did not have scholarships of savings sufficient to pay for college I would recommend enlisting in the Marine Corps (or another branch of service) before getting saddled with huge amounts of student loan debt in a tough economic times. The Post 9-11 GI Bill benefits are lavishly generous and nearly the equivalent of a full ride scholarship. Add to that you get the experience and financial foundation of four years of military service.

Until Congress finally admits the obvious (that the Post 9/11 GI bill is too expensive to continue), enlisting in the military is a really great opportunity to earn an education and avoid the student loan debt that is a cancer on a generation of 20-30 year olds (see infographic pasted at the bottom).

quote:

---

A general question for the Marines on here:

Do the Marines allow a recruit to choose his/her MOS like the Army does?

Does a Marine Officer get to choose their career field?

---

The short answer is "no". The Army will guarantee specific MOS assignment at the time of enlistment. The Marine Corps, being much smaller, will offer a guarantee of assignment into an occupational field rather than a specific MOS so that it has the flexibility to ensure that every seat in each MOS school is filled from the smaller number of recruits graduating Marine Corps boot camp.

For example, an Army recruit could get an assignment guarantee for 11B infantryman. A Marine recruit could be given an assignment guarantee to the infantry occupational field which is a guarantee that he will be assigned to one of four infantry MOS which include 0311 (Rifleman), 0331 (Machine Gunner), 0341 (Mortarman), 0351 (Assaultman a.k.a. SMAW Rocketeer). Once at boot camp where the specific distribution of MOS's will take place the recruits may get a chance to express a preference for which MOS they want.

Marine officers on the ground side compete in an MOS lottery while at The Basic School (TBS) in which they rank their top three preferences for MOS and the company staff assigns them based on the availability of MOS slots and a quality spread of top third, middle third, bottom third of their class ranking a TBS. Marine officers with an aviation guarantee know they are going to flight school but get assigned to a specific aircraft type based on performance at flight school. I had a former boss (FTAC '82 by the way) who would answer when I asked what type of aircraft he flew by saying, "UH-1 Hueys, so you know I studied hard at flight school.'



[This message has been edited by Ulysses90 (edited 4/3/2014 4:16p).]

Ulysses spot on.

I'd add that preference for types of jobs should play in as well. After initial schools, Marine officers lead and, even in combat arms, spend much of their time in offices. Enlisted Marines can spend several enlistments actively doing the cool stuff.

Don't confuse intelligence with this choice- there are many enlisted Marines who are smarter or have better degrees than their leaders- they just wanted something different.

Lastly- there had been a desire in the last few years by many Marines to get into the fight before it was over- some enlisting before going to college in order to get to Afghanistan. Deployments have become difficult to attain and less kinetic, so he is unlikely to catch one regardless which route he goes. Don't let that be the determining factor.

Have him sign up for the "Spend the night with the Corps" program, on the Corps website.

Thanks HollywoodBQ for calling us enlisted Marines dumb in such a polite manner.

Wow, thanks so much for your input guys!

I'd love to bring this kid down with us to a game next year and let him spend the night with the Corps and see what he thinks. If I know him as well as I think I do, I think he would be a great fit.

Keep in mind as well that it is very difficult to get into A&M, and also very difficult to get a Marine Officer commission these days. He needs to have outstanding grades and be in excellent physical condition.
If he can get in, that is definitely the route to take (speaking in generalities).

[This message has been edited by Whoop04 (edited 4/4/2014 12:12a).]

cookeag - you're welcome but, please note that I didn't call enlisted Marines dumb, just uneducated. And by the way, my assessment of enlisted Army soldiers wouldn't be any different.

It's not until they reach E4 going on E5 that they start to really learn about the world around them, seeing the big picture, etc. In my earlier post, I had intended to write about a HS buddy but forgot to. Anyway, Ulysses90 could probably provide more detail on senior enlisted development but at that point, you're transitioning into a career.

Anyway, I took the OPs question to be more like - let's say I had a HS kid who was looking at 4 years enlisted in the USMC or 4 years in the Corps of Cadets at Texas A&M, which one would you recommend.

Assuming the dollars were equal, I think 4 years at A&M would be the way to go. However as Ulysses90 stated, hindsight being 20/20, 4 years enlisted is not a bad way to go assuming you are going to college to get your education afterwards - paid for with your GI Bill.

One of my former soldiers went to t.u. after his 4 years enlistment. He was a great student and had no problem pulling chicks as an Elementary Education major (smart move, right?). With the GI Bill, he had is school covered so he was in a good position. As Ulyssess90 stated, it's the debt situation that is going to crush kids coming out of HS today. They're probably going to be paying loans off until they're in their 30s.

Back to the career education for just a second. A HS friend enlisted in the USMC and made a career out of it. He just retired last year after 24 years in. It wasn't until he worked his way into the senior NCO ranks that he really started getting the education that will help him for the rest of his life.

I also wanted to add that my 15 y/o daughter and I were vacationing in Goa, India last October and we wound up visiting with about 10 or so enlisted Marines who were drinking Kingfisher beer at the swim up bar in the pool. Great group of guys and it was interesting talking to them about what their aspirations were. Some planned to stay in. Some planned to go to college. The kid with USMC tattooed across his stomach in letters 8 inches high planned to go back home to Lake Arrowhead, California and join the Fire Department (I was crushed though when he told me that I was the same age as his mom - I felt pretty old then). The kid from Arkansas took a liking to me because I was from the South - all his buddies made fun of him for sounding like a redneck. And much to my surprise (and theirs), one of the Marines had a father who was from Saudi Arabia. So when I mentioned that I grew up in Saudi Arabia, they all understood it (that's never happened before). Because, this Marine had already been through the explanation of the oil business with his buddies.

So not dumb. But, just don't rely on a 4 year enlistment as your only source of education.

So, back to the OP, I'd ask your HS student what his career aspirations are following his service in the USMC?

quote:

---

I had a former boss (FTAC '82 by the way) who would answer when I asked what type of aircraft he flew by saying, "UH-1 Hueys, so you know I studied hard at flight school.'

---

Was he being sarcastic?

Good comments here..

Keep in mind GI Bill is not just for enlisted. Don't limit the conversation to undergraduate. He has the potential to get Hinson Hazlewood benefits and GI Bill, both of which he can transfer to kids or use for graduate degree after his active service if he goes in as an officer.

quote:

---

Was he being sarcastic?

---

Most definitely. I believe I even heard him make that statement when introducing himself to a Hornet driver.

Go Army, more opportunity.

One thing that has been brought up that I think needs to hammered home.

Is the kid mentally ready for college? Not from an intelligence standard but from a drive, will, and self-discipline to be successful in college.

20 years later, I can admit, I did not have that drive or self-discipline at 18. So I pretty much squandered my time at A&M, spent too much money and brain cells at the Chicken and not enough late night hours tearing up the books. IF if had not been for the minimal control the Corps exerted over me, I would have more than likely failed or dropped out by my Jr. year. Instead I graduated with healthy 2.5 and no real job prospects.

I decided to enlist in the Marines. After less than a year, it was clear that I should enlisted first, gained some discipline, gotten rid of my wild oats, and then gone to college. I grew up a hell of a lot more as a LCpl than I ever did while at A&M.

Fast forward down the line, I salvaged my academic career thanks to that time in the Marines (I won't lie my experiences in the Corps of Cadets made boot camp a hell of a lot easier)
and now I am well on my way to having an academic article published in a book on counter-insurgency and completing my PhD.

To make it a short story, we don't always mature and come into our own the same as everyone else. A 4 year stint in the Marines might provide the principles that make a future college career for this kid successful.

The girl who does our daily announcements just said over the speaker "Are you interested in spending a night with the Corps? (pronouncing it as "corpse")

That's not going to generate any student interest. Well, hopefully it won't.

Well, since it is after Elephant Walk, I guess it would be The Night of the Living Dead (Elephants)

I joined the Corps of Cadets knowing that I wanted to be a Marine. During my pisshead year I joined the Marine Reserves on what they called then a 92 day plan. I would leave for Bootcamp right after the spring semester ended and would be back in time to start the fall semester. The next summer I went to Infantry school and then it was just normal from there. The though being that i would have an advantage as an officer having already been enlisted. That is a pretty good route to go if they still have it. I will say that if your ASVAB (I think that is how you spell it) is high enough you can pick whatever MOS you want. At least that is what I was told. They were shocked when I told them I was going to be an 0311 or not enlist. The recruiter kept telling me I could pick whatever I wanted, but Grunts is what I wanted and it was never an issue. I am pretty sure there are still some guaranteed MOS's, but it has been a while since I have been in

CLASS of '96
P-2 C.O.
Jarhead
President of the Malaysia Aggie Club