I am respectfully asking for serious replies. There is a reason I came back to ask this question.

The Secretary of the Air Force is currently considering the possibility of reinstating my commission eligibility. I was discharged under DADT. It is very complicated.

The fundamental question that has to be answered if I were to be allowed to commission is what does the AF get that is better from me than what any new 2Lt fresh out of college could provide?

The biggest two factors are that I served four years on active duty in the enlisted ranks, and I have a Masters degree. Other factors are my service record, awards/decorations, experience (military and civilian), etc. The biggest hurdle is my age, which will require a waiver.

It's easy to put up the intangibles like experience and perspective and how they will make me perform better and require less guidance and mentorship, but there is no real way to put a dollar figure on them. As we all know, saving money is frequently the best way to make a case for doing something in the military.

I know a Masters is pretty much required for major these days and the AF incurs a lot of expense and impact for many of the officers who pursue a Masters. The AF can contribute in a variety of ways when on officer pursues grad school (i.e. AFIT, tuition reimbursement, flexible schedules, etc.). When that happens, the officer's contributions to the operational mission can be affected. Since I already have my Masters, none of that becomes an issue for me.

Further, it would make me eligible for joint schools, war college, etc. faster with the Masters out of the way, and I would also be practically immediately eligible for teaching assignment at ROTC, OTS, etc. upon being promoted to captain.

What I'm asking for here is some thoughts on what factors could be included in a cost/benefit analysis to help me make a compelling case for reinstatement.

This is extremely important to me, and I know there are people on here who can provide excellent guidance. Thank you in advance for your help.

[This message has been edited by Ryan the Temp (edited 9/20/2013 7:10p).]

"The fundamental question that has to be answered if I were to be allowed to commission is what does the AF get that is better from me than what any new 2Lt fresh out of college could provide?"

I read this about 5 times and I'm still not sure what you're asking.

I think what you are asking is whether or not 1) your enlisted time "counts" toward additional pay and benefits (answer: yes, prior enlisted gets a separate pay chart with more $$ up through rank of Captain), and 2) since you already have your master's, etc., can you get "constructive credit" toward "rank" and $$ and benefits because you already have them and the military does not have to pay for them...?? (Answer: Maybe. Depends on the "needs of the service" - regardless of branch. Typically, a "board certified" M.D., PE, Architect, Attorney, etc., gets "constructive service" IF they have already achieved national Board recognition status and THEN, they MIGHT be eligible for additional consideration to come on board at a higher rank, etc.
It's all up to the Personnel Manuals and Regulations and the identifier code you are seeking.
At least that's my experience. Often it is based on shortages of special skills or "needs of the service" - And as a Medical Service Corps Officer I saw a lot of this sort of thing occur.

AAAAAAAAAAg - Air Force Aggie Architect & Administrator from Amarillo, Altus, Austin, Arabia, Africa, Seoul, Amman, Arkansas (ret) '65, '69, '73. Track Letterman
"The most potent weapon against basic human decency, in the armamentarium of pure evil, is the self-imposed ignorance and moral decay of the people themselves."

I got 1st LT USAF in 6 months instead of 18 months !

Reason - 10 years of inactive enlisted Navy reserves After 1 year active Navy duty .

Did I argue about this and the $100. plus add'l Navy service time credit monthly increase ? Hell, no ! Still amazed at the clerk who saw this and put me up for the promotion.

So, yes, enlisted service is recognized !

I think I can clarify using an example.

Captain Jones wants to make major but needs to get a masters degree. The Air Force decides to send Capt Jones to get said Masters degree for two years. So the Air Force spends $25,000 on tuition and fees, plus roughly $135,000 in salary, plus a bunch more for benefits, and loses operational use of Capt Jones for two years.

Since I already have a Masters, the Air Force doesn't have to pay for it and retains operational use of me for the full time I am a captain. The argument might then become that I potentially cost the Air Force $160,000+ less than Capt. Jones just by coming in with a Masters already.

Does that make more sense?

That's kind of an over-simplified financial model, but the gist is ok. It doesn't require advanced degrees to make major in the Army, so this may be a little off -

It's not the monetary value of advanced civil schooling, it's the mind-broadening. Young lieutenants are paid more because their college education has broadened their minds (in theory). The Army sends (only) exceptional officers to get advanced civil schooling to broaden their horizons before taking operational and strategic level jobs. The value your MS/MA/MBA/MPA/MPAS/Metc. has for the AF is it implies you are already broadened.

The budget is getting smaller, sure, but that's not what is keeping strategic leaders up at night. What's keeping them up is how to develop leaders in an institutional environment after having two real wars to use as developing assignments the last 12 years. So, what you offer is an already-broadened, developed leader as a 2LT. Most 2LTs are rote-memorization guys - the "knowledge" level of Bloom's Taxonomy. Your experience (military and civilian) and advanced degree imply that you can operate higher up the taxonomy. This is important because as the wartime experience leaves the force, and as budgets constrict, the services have to figure out how to get the same level of leader development out of the institutional force - with less money. THAT'S what value you and your degree add.

quote:

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The Air Force decides to send Capt Jones to get said Masters degree for two years. So the Air Force spends $25,000 on tuition and fees, plus roughly $135,000 in salary, plus a bunch more for benefits, and loses operational use of Capt Jones for two years.

---

My 1st Lieutenant son in law is working on his masters, getting a little help from the AF, but paying for part on his own. He is doing it online and is not missing any duty or deployments for his degree. Daughter has been in UPT, so has not had time, but will start her masters soon. She also will not be losing any duty time.

There are those who are sent to get degrees at AF expense, but I believe those are rare these days.

And the feeling is that you have to have a master's to hit Captain, though they may be backing off that requirement, IIRC.

I think your assumption that the majority of AF officers with Masters Degrees got their degrees through the Air Force Institute of Technology (AFIT) Civilian Institution Program is incorrect.

http://www.afit.edu/cip/reggr.cfm

Officers selected for this program are sent to civilian institutions for two years (or more for PHD programs) to obtain advanced education TO MEET SPECIFIC AF NEEDS.

In my experience the vast majority of AF officers DO NOT get their Masters Degrees through the AFIT CI program. They pay for their advanced degree themselves and do it on their own time, at night and on weekends.

Bottom line: Your assumption that most AF officers get their Masters Degrees paid for by the AF and take two years out of their operational careers to do so is flat wrong.



[This message has been edited by NormanAg (edited 9/20/2013 5:46p).]

Master's to make major may or may not apply depending on job requirements.

AFIT is a great way to go but not everyone is eligible, nor are slots always available either at Wright-Patt or in the civilian university system(s).

When a selection Board sits down and reviews an individual's promotion files, one of the boxes that can be checked is "Master's Degree". If it is filled, it can be a tie breaker of enormous value when the number of Captains to Majors (in a specific career field) is a large group for only a few promotions.

Obviously, IF a person gets the Master's on his own time, that is admirable. But, on the form itself it does not say "AFIT" or "self"...

However, in the remarks section on an Officer Performance Report (OER), there is ample opportunity for a reporting officer (or endorser or additional endorser...) to make comments that get the basis for the Master's out in the open - because it shows "initiative".

Graduate coursework - especially at large installations or near a college - will have contracts for either on installation classes, or distance learning via the web. Probably the largest University offering these degrees is the U of Maryland. It is also one of the ways the U of Phoenix has grown exponentially.

As in anything else, the "Master's Degree" program you are in - and it's value to the Air Force - and the University you got it from (reputation) are ALL IMPORTANT. Mainly, does it help you in your job (as in anything else?) if you go get the Master's (or PhD) on your own??

Let's just say you have prior enlisted time, and you already have a Master's - and you are qualified for a specific job... So, they give you "constructive credit" to 1Lt instead of 2Lt (which saves 2 years towards retirement). How you present yourself then as a 1Lt - bearing, attitude, aptitude, etc., are all still very important if you expect to make even Captain, let alone Major. Your relationship to your superiors (who may or may not have an advanced degree...) is all important because they write or maybe endorse your OER. If you sail through the official photo, all the blocks are checked, and you are considered difficult to deal with or recalcitrant, or egocentric, or a general f'up/arseole it will be written as such in your OER and you are dead in the water. That's just the way it works.

As a side note, A&M typically has 150-200 Air Force AFIT Officer's in graduate degree programs at any time - some working on PhD's.
A&M often has as many 400-500 Army Officer's in graduate degree programs at any time - some working on PhD's.
I don't know the numbers for Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard and Merchant Marines; however, when I was on the TRIGON staff ('71-'73)I know there were not only students in the Corps pursuing commissions in every branch of the military service, but officers from each branch doing graduate work as well.


AAAAAAAAAAg - Air Force Aggie Architect & Administrator from Amarillo, Altus, Austin, Arabia, Africa, Seoul, Amman, Arkansas (ret) '65, '69, '73. Track Letterman
"The most potent weapon against basic human decency, in the armamentarium of pure evil, is the self-imposed ignorance and moral decay of the people themselves."

NormanAg - It was an example to try to clarify the question in cleaner, more direct terms. I know it isn't common.

[edit: I now realize my OP was very poorly worded. My apologies.]

[This message has been edited by Ryan the Temp (edited 9/20/2013 7:08p).]

Thumbs up for Ryan - best of luck to you!

And Aggie1's post was outstanding! Excellent advice.

Any thoughts on how to sell the intangibles like experience, perspective, professional maturity? I already put my current job into military terms - XO of a group-level organization.

I'm trying to approach it from a cost-benefit perspective: How does the age of the LT and the waiver required get outweighed by what I bring to the force?

(it's so much easier to translate from military to civilian)

No. The regs and manuals will spell out what is required and the "age exception" will be given based on them and "the needs of the service" for your skill sets. You are not supposed to know the makeup of the Board to prevent "massaging" your application.
IF they choose to interview you is your only chance to otherwise influence them. Short of that read the regs and manuals yourself to be sure you have done everything you can in completing your application ... And obtw don't po the person(s) assisting you in preparing or processing your paperwork.
If you have prior enlisted time you know that person (like secretaries and other support personnel) can be your friend - or your worst enemy...

This isn't an application situation. SECAF is going to make the decision.

Really?
Someone in the "office" of the Secretary of the AF - maybe... but the Secretary himself? I would truly be surprised... He only gets involved with 0-6 and above selections. ...and maybe E-9's. In fact, given the "sequester" issues, the military is trying to find ways to cut back and reduce forces as much as possible... Bad timing IMO for what you are trying to do. If successful, a tip of the hat!!
Just for the record - during my enlisted days I was a 7027X/7327X/63XXX - That's "admin/personnel/finance"...
And was in AECP (AFIT for enlisted), Bootstrap, and AFIT for Officers. If there was a wrinkle in the system, I found - and used - many of them...
I do know a bit from not only personal experience but as well as my job.
However, that was a few years back... things change like in "social actions" - but not that much in actions such as these in the military...
It was my experience that the A&M Corps of Cadets has more "movement" (...new Army...) than the actual military in many regards - including being much more "red ass"...
Good Luck!!



[This message has been edited by Aggie1 (edited 9/21/2013 4:44a).]

Thanks, and yes, the Secretary himself.

The whole thing started with a group of people, including me, got notification that we were up for major selection in the IRR. ARPC personnel were absolutely convinced it wasn't an error and were trying to transfer me to the active reserve as a captain. We initially thought I had been reinstated retroactively due to some amazing coincidences that turned out to be just that - coincidences. It was a huge mess.

Seeing how I am incredibly active in the political realm a friend of mine who knows the Secretary personally reached out to him without my asking, and the Secretary contacted me for more information about my personal situation.

They can't make any promises, and I wouldn't expect them to, but I figure if I can sell myself as a real asset they should want, then it increases the chance they say, "Sure, why not."

They are looking to see if my being in the Corps even after I was disenrolled from AFROTC, combined with my time at USAFA and enlisted will satisfy the ROTC training requirements and allow me to commission. Alternatively, they can consider allowing me into OTS. I've offered to reimburse the AF for the entire cost of training if they send me to OTS and (God forbid) I am unable to prove myself.

The way I see it, if I can give them a nothing-to-lose scenario, maybe they will decide favorably.

If I were you, I wouldn't attempt to make a cost/benefit argument. The pay differences between O-1/)O-3 and O-1E/O-3E alone will guarentee that it costs the AF more to choose you over a non-prior. On the masters argument, as someone stated above, most don't do AFIT. Though mamy officers use some form of tuition assistance, it's not a huge financial hit for the AF.

You'd be better off just focusing on what you bring to the table from the experience/leadership perspective.

I missed eligibility for the E designation by 10 days.

I think you are making a mistake by trying to sell yourself as a good alternative. At least that's the way I'm reading it.

Sell yourself as an asset to the Air Force. What do you bring to the table that will help make the Air Force stronger. People are promoted not because of what they have done, but because of what the service feels they can provide at the next level.

Very well said!

That is a very interesting perspective, CT'97. I had not thought of it that way. I've been writing and revising my brief for four days, and I think I will make a few edits based on your advice.

I'm praying this happens, and I find some incredible irony in the fact that I almost shredded all of my military records about a month ago because I didn't think I needed them after all this time, but I didn't. I also just lost 65 pounds (enough to fit back into my old uniform). Here's to hoping those are part of God's plan to give me a second chance.

Thank you everyone for your advice and perspective. It's officially out of my hands at this point. My BCMR package was received at Randolph this morning, and my petition for reinstatement made it to the Pentagon. All said, they've got close to 200 pages of source documents supporting my case.

SECAF said he's got a colonel working my case hard and that my case is "very compelling!" (emphasis his).

I will let you all know how it turns out.

[This message has been edited by Ryan the Temp (edited 9/27/2013 12:01a).]

[This message has been edited by Buck Turgidson (edited 10/1/2013 7:06p).]

No offense, but I'm surprised they would put so much time and manpower into one case. They are getting rid of officers left and right. Why would they put a colonel on your case? Why would the Secretary even get involved? Honest question.

[This message has been edited by redcrayon (edited 10/2/2013 7:28a).]

redcrayon -

My guess is that with the recent changes allowing homosexuals to openly serve, they are looking at some of the higher profile cases of service members who were earlier discharged for homosexuality and no other cause.

Whether they are looking to right wrongs or to gin up publicity, who knows? One's opinion probably depends on their level of cynicism and their trust or lack thereof in the current administration.

You're probably right. And it doesn't hurt that the SECAF is gay.

Update: I should have a decision in 3 to 10 months.

Ryan, any update re : amount % given to Corps by Corps of Cadets Org? In past very small % went to Corps activities !

RtP...I hope it all works out for you.

Great news! I am being given the opportunity to apply for OTS for the FY15 boards. My discharge under DADT is being expunged and will not be considered.

I will be selected on my merits or I won't. Either way, it's a second chance at life most people never get.

Whoop!

great, if you have more questions I am a recruiter

Thanks. What kind of recruiter? Right now I'm dealing with the chief of OTS recruiting at Randolph.

I hope all goes well with your endeavors.

Met acting Sec AF Fanning last month and seemed like a good guy.

im a general army recruiter but our policies on this subject are mostly the same