Located in San Antonio. This quote seems ridiculously high, but I wanted to check to see if my expectations are out of line.

I wanted to add a subpanel that would be located in my backyard shed that I could eventually run new circuits from as we work on our backyard. The electrician said the main panel would need to be upgraded as well.



Here's a picture of my current panel. I'm guessing this is from the mid-90s when the house was built.

There are a lot of variables.

How far is the shed? You have to have a 20 inch deep trench. Also, 4 awg copper wire is about 1.50 a foot. You need 3 of these plus a ground (smaller), but you have a lot of money in that trench.

As for the panel on the house, you do need a main cutoff and you are out of space. This means you need a new box. He is also adding a whole home surge protector. What will they have to dig through?

I know the price looks high, and it may very well be. We just need more information to tell you if it is.

GrimesCoAg95 said:

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There are a lot of variables.

How far is the shed? You have to have a 20 inch deep trench. Also, 4 awg copper wire is about 1.50 a foot. You need 3 of these plus a ground (smaller), but you have a lot of money in that trench.

As for the panel on the house, you do need a main cutoff and you are out of space. This means you need a new box. He is also adding a whole home surge protector. What will they have to dig through?

I know the price looks high, and it may very well be. We just need more information to tell you if it is.

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The trench from the main panel to the shed would be about 15 feet. Not a very long run.

Can you elaborate on "what will they have to dig through?" for the whole home surge protector?

Is the whole home surge protector necessary/recommended? I didn't ask for that specifically but he added it on to the quote.

Sorry, the what will they have to dig through was meant for the trench. I combined thoughts there. One way to save a bit it to dig this for them. If you dig and cover up the trench, you will save that cost. I am not sure how much rock there is where you live.

I would add the whole home surge protector. They are not expensive ($100 or less). It is just that they take up 2 slots just like a double breaker. The point is your panel is full. You need a new one because you need a main and you need at least 4 more slots. Two for the protector and two to feed the panel in the shed.

Ask for a true itemization estimate. What hes charging for the new panel, each breaker, surge, labor x # of hours etc.

Is he pulling permits?

That estimate is just rife with ways to over charge you. Its like he had a number in mind (7500) he wanted to make and just added line items to convince you hes doing enough for it.

Once you have that, use that estimate as a tool to negotiate with reputable competitors. Let them fight over 1up'ing each other to get you the best deal.

Thanks for the info. I could definitely dig the trench myself. Looks like a trencher rental from Home Depot is about $70.

FatZilla said:

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Ask for a true itemization estimate. What hes charging for the new panel, each breaker, surge, labor x # of hours etc.

Is he pulling permits?

That estimate is just rife with ways to over charge you. Its like he had a number in mind (7500) he wanted to make and just added line items to convince you hes doing enough for it.

Once you have that, use that estimate as a tool to negotiate with reputable competitors. Let them fight over 1up'ing each other to get you the best deal.

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This. Have the estimate broken out by item.

With a quote that high, definitely warrants multiple bids.

To me...a non-electrician....that bid seems high.

We did some electric work with our remodel and had quotes for sub-panels, running new lines, re-wire island electric, etc and had several under $1,000 for that work. We did get 1 bid that was just insane ($3K+) so its worth it to bid out the job and as many have said, make them itemize especially for something going over $3K...that is pretty sizeable job.

I agree with the multiple bids comment as well as the itemized quote. I was just trying to make sense of the bid as it seemed high. I was wondering how far the shed was. Trenches are very expensive so I was wondering it it was far.

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Let them fight over 1up'ing each other to get you the best deal.

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These days very few contractors are fighting over work, it is homeowners fighting to get contractors to come work for them. If you seem like you will be a pain in the b*tt to work for, you will be bid to make it worth their while.

Ask politely for an itemized bid & as always get a couple of additional bids to compare.
Be sure to ask lead time on this & how long the job will take.

Good luck.

FatZilla said:

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Ask for a true itemization estimate. What hes charging for the new panel, each breaker, surge, labor x # of hours etc.

Is he pulling permits?

That estimate is just rife with ways to over charge you. Its like he had a number in mind (7500) he wanted to make and just added line items to convince you hes doing enough for it.

Once you have that, use that estimate as a tool to negotiate with reputable competitors. Let them fight over 1up'ing each other to get you the best deal.

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I've gotten electrical work done in the last year and you're just not going to get called back being demanding like this. They're not bidding against each other right now. They all have more work than they can get done. There's nothing wrong with getting multiple bids and comparing scope and making sure that you don't get screwed (and it's still buyer beware out there) but at a time when they're picking and choosing customers, this adversarial attitude is not something that they're going to want to deal with.

Are you going to argue with them about the cost of each component? They mark up the price of the materials. Its part of how they make money. If you want to look at their proposal and go "I can get that at Home Depot for less" then they're just going to ghost you. You're not paying them for hourly work. You're paying them for piece work, so it doesn't matter what the rate is and especially not the number of hours. You pay a fixed amount of money for them to accomplish the task, no matter how slow they work.

Do you want the bid to include 6 hours of work, and if they run into an issue and it goes over 6 hours they stop working and demand more money? Because that's what you get when you pay hourly.

There's really not anywhere for them to screw you out of what you want in that proposal. It specifies a new panel and all new components with surge protector. It specifies the brand. It specifies the ampacity of the line to the shed and the path and that its in conduit. Pulling the permit is the only question that I would ask them about.

When you're getting a fixed price bid, you don't actually have to worry about itemized numbers (nor do you want to. You need to worry about the scope. What is included in the price and what is not included in the price? Make sure those things are comparable from one proposal to another and then look at the price.

Well said.

Multiple bids > Itemized. Cost to get the job done is what matters.


I will say...this is anectodal as we are going through a a kitchen remodel and acting as own contractor....the past 2 or 3 months we have had much better luck in getting painters, electricians and plumbers out than we could 12 months ago. I think that stimulus money has been spent and the impacts of Uri are drying up and they are starting to "normalize" just a bit. I have even negotiated all my work down from the initial bid lately (nothing crazy, but I do take their bid and re-offer as it never hurts to try).

Good luck to OP!

The panel upgrade is a code issue. As noted, there is max of 6 "handles" allowed, which you already have. You can't add number 7 to feed your subpanel. Electrician, unless he's nuts, is going to have to have CPS pull the meter to swap the panels, which is going to get into permits and whatnot. Without digging deeper into that price, I can tell you that anything electrical that has a vowel in its name has gotten stupid expensive and in short supply. There are items that have a 48-50 week lead time, and then it trickles down.

You might could ask for a line item to delete the surge suppressor. If you ask for a breakdown, you're likely to get
1. ghosted
2. Something like $5500 material, $2000 labor.
3. If he's bored, a long drawn out list of every fitting, coupling, wirenut, screw, washer, inch of tape, etc. that will all add up to $7500.

Get another couple of bids and compare.

Suberg and Hill Electric should do residential, but they are going to be higher than the one or two man shops with lower overhead.

Quote:

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If you ask for a breakdown, you're likely to get

1. ghosted

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For real. It's like this with every trade!

planoaggie123 said:

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Well said.

Multiple bids > Itemized. Cost to get the job done is what matters.


I will say...this is anectodal as we are going through a a kitchen remodel and acting as own contractor....the past 2 or 3 months we have had much better luck in getting painters, electricians and plumbers out than we could 12 months ago. I think that stimulus money has been spent and the impacts of Uri are drying up and they are starting to "normalize" just a bit. I have even negotiated all my work down from the initial bid lately (nothing crazy, but I do take their bid and re-offer as it never hurts to try).

Good luck to OP!

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I certainly hope it's getting better. I don't understand what's supposed to be so magic about an itemized bid. I've never felt entitled to that level of detail because it's proprietary information and I don't care because the important thing is that I get what I want done for a price that is worthwhile for me.

I literally bid multimillion dollar jobs with a highly detailed scope and a single price.

Lol just 30 minutes ago our painter, who 3 weeks ago told us he couldn't come back out until July, is now coming tomorrow.

Apache said:

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Quote:

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Let them fight over 1up'ing each other to get you the best deal.

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These days very few contractors are fighting over work, it is homeowners fighting to get contractors to come work for them. If you seem like you will be a pain in the b*tt to work for, you will be bid to make it worth their while.


Good luck.

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Absolutely this. Also, as a contractor, I don't itemize my work nor will I. I'm not giving a customer pricing down to nails and vent caps. You get a price to replace the roof and the under that are all the included items, but you're not getting the price for each and every one of those because that's not how I bid work. Plus, any customer that asks for that is tire kicking and I simply don't have time for that. Most of those are looking for cheap, so they'll go to the lowest bidder and the ones that aren't are going to be a pain In the tail. I'll even ask people to show me the other quotes so I can tell them if I'm even going to compete with the price. It saves everyone a lot of time. I'm not going to do my job for 5K less because your other guy will and I can tell you that on the spot and we can both go about our day cordially. If it's a few hundred bucks, then I can be serious about it and give it my time.

Instead of wasting your contractors time, get the price for the job (which you have) and then Get other quotes for the same job. You don't need it itemized.

That said, much like roofing, it's not unreasonable to have brands and models for major components of the build. I'd never give a customer a price for "we're gonna put shingles on". Brand, model, color…there are some things that customer do need to compare jobs, brand of nails and how many squares of underlayment is not in that list.

Deleted after edits.

Jason_InfinityRoofer said:

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Apache said:

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Quote:

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Let them fight over 1up'ing each other to get you the best deal.

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These days very few contractors are fighting over work, it is homeowners fighting to get contractors to come work for them. If you seem like you will be a pain in the b*tt to work for, you will be bid to make it worth their while.


Good luck.

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Absolutely this. Also, as a contractor, I don't itemize my work nor will I. I'm not giving a customer pricing down to nails and vent caps. You get a price to replace the roof and the under that are all the included items, but you're not getting the price for each and every one of those because that's not how I bid work. Plus, any customer that asks for that is tire kicking and I simply don't have time for that. Most of those are looking for cheap, so they'll go to the lowest bidder and the ones that aren't are going to be a pain In the tail. I'll even ask people to show me the other quotes so I can tell them if I'm even going to compete with the price. It saves everyone a lot of time. I'm not going to do my job for 5K less because your other guy will and I can tell you that on the spot and we can both go about our day cordially. If it's a few hundred bucks, then I can be serious about it and give it my time.

Instead of wasting your contractors time, get the price for the job (which you have) and then Get other quotes for the same job. You don't need it itemized.

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If you can't break down your bid into basic itemized categories, something is wrong. No one needs to see the cost of your nails or man hours, but they are entitled to see round cost of, for instance, the OSB and related labor you're charging to re-sheath their entire roof. Or the cost of the shingles + markup.

Jason_InfinityRoofer said:

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Apache said:

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Quote:

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Let them fight over 1up'ing each other to get you the best deal.

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These days very few contractors are fighting over work, it is homeowners fighting to get contractors to come work for them. If you seem like you will be a pain in the b*tt to work for, you will be bid to make it worth their while.


Good luck.

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Absolutely this. Also, as a contractor, I don't itemize my work nor will I. I'm not giving a customer pricing down to nails and vent caps. You get a price to replace the roof and the under that are all the included items, but you're not getting the price for each and every one of those because that's not how I bid work. Plus, any customer that asks for that is tire kicking and I simply don't have time for that. Most of those are looking for cheap, so they'll go to the lowest bidder and the ones that aren't are going to be a pain In the tail. I'll even ask people to show me the other quotes so I can tell them if I'm even going to compete with the price. It saves everyone a lot of time. I'm not going to do my job for 5K less because your other guy will and I can tell you that on the spot and we can both go about our day cordially. If it's a few hundred bucks, then I can be serious about it and give it my time.

Instead of wasting your contractors time, get the price for the job (which you have) and then Get other quotes for the same job. You don't need it itemized.

That said, much like roofing, it's not unreasonable to have brands and models for major components of the build. I'd never give a customer a price for "we're gonna put shingles on". Brand, model, color…there are some things that customer do need to compare jobs, brand of nails and how many squares of underlayment is not in that list.

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***Noted who will not be installing my next roof***

Well, sorry you feel that way, but I can appreciate the sentiment. However, I think you should read the post again. We're all on the same page.

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If you can't break down your bid into basic itemized categories, something is wrong. No one needs to see the cost of your nails or man hours, but they are entitled to see round cost of, for instance, the OSB and related labor you're charging to re-sheath their entire roof. Or the cost of the shingles + markup.

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Many of the subs are one man shows & have to perform work/supervise crews, buy materials, do estimating, collect $, estimate jobs, go get a tire for the crews truck that had a blowout across town, etc. etc. They are working 60-70 hour weeks regularly, so time is of the essence.

It's a tough game, and it really sucks to spend a lot of time/energy on bids especially when you are super busy.

Having been in contracting for 25 years, I can't tell you the amount of time I've wasted breaking down bids, itemizing different things, breaking bids into phases... all to watch the customer go to a company I know does sorry work for cheap & is involved in multiple disputes. Now I bid the way I bid. If you have questions, I'll answer them to make sure we are all clear on scope but I don't waste time because time is $.

Sometimes bids are changed simply by gut feel, intuition or other things that aren't easily quantifiable. Some contractors have it, some don't. There are a ton of guys contracting that have no idea what their overhead is, no idea what a net profit is or are simply too stupid to realize they are doing work too cheap. These guys are everywhere when times are good, but when things slow down they won't have cash reserves to do warranty work & won't be in business. Reputable contractors who've been in the game a long time & know their business avoid like the plague getting into p*ssing matches with those types. There is no winning that game.

I see both sides as I've also been a customer getting remodels done, built houses, etc. Just a little perspective from someone who has done it. Always get 3 bids.

This guy gets it

I am the contractor, secretary, accountant, carpenter, painter, roofer, drywaller, problem solver as well as every other title I need to be to run my jobs smoothly and effectively. At the end of the day it's going to cost what it's going to cost. When you go buy a new vehicle, do you make the dealer break down the price of the vehicle by material and labor ?

JP76 said:

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This guy gets it

I am the contractor, secretary, accountant, carpenter, painter, roofer, drywaller, problem solver as well as every other title I need to be to run my jobs smoothly and effectively. At the end of the day it's going to cost what it's going to cost. When you go buy a new vehicle, do you make the dealer break down the price of the vehicle by material and labor ?

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing breaking out every point. But this is a terrible analogy. One, it's a product, not a service. Also, it is broken out. If you buy an F150 it's going to tell you base cost and list what you're getting for that, then it's going to tell you the add on price for every single available package. But again, pretty irrelevant comparing a service to a product.

I also disagree, to an extent, with the comments saying that all that matters is the cost to get the job done.

I'm not an electrician, so I'm sure there are a lot of nuanced things that vary from electrician to electrician, but just one big item thing that will make a huge impact on price is permitting. There is nothing in this quote about pulling permits. Drywall repair? etc. A little more detail isn't a bad thing and could alleviate headaches down the road for both the electrician and the homeowner.

If i build you a house is the final result a service or a finished product ?

I agree estimate is very vague and leaves a lot to be determined scope wise


My guess is he doesn't really want to do the job so just threw a number out

15 feet isn't much at all

The last one I dug was ~80 ft through sand

I would dig that yourself to save money unless it's just very rocky

Rock soil or dirt ?

And no idea what electrical labor is like in this area


Get a few more estimates from reputable licensed electricians and see where they are at

If you're truly building me a custom house then I'd say it's both.

If I'm buying a production house that you built, then I'd say it's more of a product.

Difference between breaking down the scope, and breaking down the price. They should absolutely be able to break down the scope to list the panel size, number and size of breakers, trenching, backfill, the details of the surge suppressor. Having a defined scope will allow you to get an apples to apples comparison of one price versus another.

Ultimately, you should want to know the cost of a dozen donuts from Shipley's versus Dunkin, not what each one spends on flour sugar and labor. I say that because Shipley's might use an automatic sugar feeder which is more expensive, but saves labor. If you hire someone on a cost plus basis, then you should absolutely be able to count the parts and pieces.

JP76 said:

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This guy gets it

I am the contractor, secretary, accountant, carpenter, painter, roofer, drywaller, problem solver as well as every other title I need to be to run my jobs smoothly and effectively. At the end of the day it's going to cost what it's going to cost. When you go buy a new vehicle, do you make the dealer break down the price of the vehicle by material and labor ?

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Not when I buy a car, but every shop I've taken my vehicle to for repairs or tires, they break out the cost of the item(s) they're replacing, the estimated time, and cost for that time. I don't think people have an issue paying for someone's expertise, but they do want to get an idea what their money is going toward.

Also, I think a lot of questions about quotes for work come from ignorance and not knowing what all is involved.

Right before the freeze of '21, I went into my attic to check things and noticed water in one of the pans of my water heaters. I knew it was about time to replace, so I had a few plumbers come out to give me quotes. The first 2, I asked them to also quote to replace the gas line to my island so I could put in a gas cooktop. The first guy quoted me some high price, and when I asked what was involved to justify that price, his response was "25 years experience." Ok, you're out. The next guy quoted me a bit lower, but still higher than I would have thought. But he actually took a look at things and explained to me what would be involved in it, an estimate of what each would cost. What I learned was what I thought was a simple snake a line through the PVC the existing line (which was broken) runs through and connect to the line outside the wall involved quite a bit more to do. So, I could see where he got that quote. He ended up getting the water heater replacement. Not because he was the cheapest, but because he was the most honest and took the time to explain things.

Marvin_Zindler said:

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Jason_InfinityRoofer said:

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Apache said:

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Quote:

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Let them fight over 1up'ing each other to get you the best deal.

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These days very few contractors are fighting over work, it is homeowners fighting to get contractors to come work for them. If you seem like you will be a pain in the b*tt to work for, you will be bid to make it worth their while.


Good luck.

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Absolutely this. Also, as a contractor, I don't itemize my work nor will I. I'm not giving a customer pricing down to nails and vent caps. You get a price to replace the roof and the under that are all the included items, but you're not getting the price for each and every one of those because that's not how I bid work. Plus, any customer that asks for that is tire kicking and I simply don't have time for that. Most of those are looking for cheap, so they'll go to the lowest bidder and the ones that aren't are going to be a pain In the tail. I'll even ask people to show me the other quotes so I can tell them if I'm even going to compete with the price. It saves everyone a lot of time. I'm not going to do my job for 5K less because your other guy will and I can tell you that on the spot and we can both go about our day cordially. If it's a few hundred bucks, then I can be serious about it and give it my time.

Instead of wasting your contractors time, get the price for the job (which you have) and then Get other quotes for the same job. You don't need it itemized.

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If you can't break down your bid into basic itemized categories, something is wrong. No one needs to see the cost of your nails or man hours, but they are entitled to see round cost of, for instance, the OSB and related labor you're charging to re-sheath their entire roof. Or the cost of the shingles + markup.

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Personally, I absolutely can break down any bid I do in granular detail,... the customer isn't entitled to that. Our specific methods, rates and markups are proprietary. The prices that we pay for materials is proprietary. The way that we forecast material prices is proprietary. You don't get to comment on how much margin we're going to make on any given job because its none of your business. You get to know exactly what we intend to accomplish, how we're going to do it, what is specifically excluded and how much we're going to charge you for that service.

Why does the cost of each sheet of OSB, the labor to install each sheet of OSB and the markup matter? If a contractor is high on materials and low on labor and another is low on materials and high on labor, do you think that you're going to talk them into combining their bids so you can get a lower price?

If you want the bid broken down into chunks of different scope so that you can decide what you will and won't do, I will absolutely accommodate that, but you're getting a number that represents "labor and materials required to accomplish the following scope" for each of the chunks. You might get a labor and material breakout, but you're not getting a bid broken down at the same level that I bid the work.

Apache said:

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Quote:

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If you can't break down your bid into basic itemized categories, something is wrong. No one needs to see the cost of your nails or man hours, but they are entitled to see round cost of, for instance, the OSB and related labor you're charging to re-sheath their entire roof. Or the cost of the shingles + markup.

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Sometimes bids are changed simply by gut feel, intuition or other things that aren't easily quantifiable. Some contractors have it, some don't. There are a ton of guys contracting that have no idea what their overhead is, no idea what a net profit is or are simply too stupid to realize they are doing work too cheap. These guys are everywhere when times are good, but when things slow down they won't have cash reserves to do warranty work & won't be in business. Reputable contractors who've been in the game a long time & know their business avoid like the plague getting into p*ssing matches with those types. There is no winning that game.

I see both sides as I've also been a customer getting remodels done, built houses, etc. Just a little perspective from someone who has done it. Always get 3 bids.

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These guys are also way more likely to underbid a bunch of jobs, load up on work and then fold when times get tough... They'll disappear like a fart in the wind leaving you holding the bag.

Please put effort into getting multiple bids and making sure that the proper scope is included and that it is comparable between bids.

There is a difference between a customer that is detail oriented and protecting themselves from the many shady players in the construction industry and a customer that has an adversarial attitude from the beginning.

UnderoosAg said:

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Difference between breaking down the scope, and breaking down the price. They should absolutely be able to break down the scope to list the panel size, number and size of breakers, trenching, backfill, the details of the surge suppressor. Having a defined scope will allow you to get an apples to apples comparison of one price versus another.

Ultimately, you should want to know the cost of a dozen donuts from Shipley's versus Dunkin, not what each one spends on flour sugar and labor. I say that because Shipley's might use an automatic sugar feeder which is more expensive, but saves labor. If you hire someone on a cost plus basis, then you should absolutely be able to count the parts and pieces.

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For the panel in the house, it says it will be a cutler hammer panel and it includes replacing all of the existing breakers, so you know you're getting a Cutler Hammer residential panel and breakers that match the existing ones. The surge protector is going to match the panel and the main breaker so those specs are implied. The power running to the shed is rated for 60A so the main breaker for that run is going to be 60A. You might want to specify how many positions you want in the sub-panel.

Trenching and backfill are specified by code and I think they should get an inspection before they bury the conduit, so the depth and marking is implied. I would make sure that they're pulling permits. Generally they are going to put the grass back when they bury it, but its a 15ft trench that's probably going to be 1ft wide, the grass will grow back. I'm not that concerned about it, but if you do care you can get them to specify that.

If it makes you more comfortable to have those questions answered in writing, that's reasonable. I don't think any reputable contractor is going to have a problem answering questions about the scope, or giving additional detail on that. The only risk to it is not allowing them flexibility in sourcing. For a roof, picking the specific shingle makes sense, but tying them down to specific decking product can cause delays in a job (especially nowadays.) The protection from a highly detailed scope goes both ways. The customer is protected from the contractor skimping out on work that was expected to be included in the price and the contractor is protected from the customer trying to expand the scope without paying for it.

TMoney2007 said:

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The surge protector is going to match the panel and the main breaker so those specs are implied.

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You wouldn't select an SPD based on the panel or main breaker size. You want to look at the clamping voltage to see the thresholds of what it can handle. Look at the current ratings to see what it can dissipate. Modes of protection such as line to line, line to neutral, line to ground. Bells and whistles such as protection monitoring to know when all the bubbles in the bubble wrap have been popped and the device is no good. Replaceable modules so you can swap out the bubble wrap sections instead of rewiring the whole thing. Home Depot has whole house devices which all "work" and they vary in price from about $38 to $360. Spec grade ones go up from there.