I need to replace my old crappy Fed Pac breaker panel because it has a couple of piggy backs on it, and the breaker for my spa heater is flaky, I want to install a new 20 amp outlet for my welder in my garage, and Fed Pac has been outta business for a long time.

The electrical work is pretty easy. No way in hell I am touching a thing without having centerpoint turn off power to my service drop while I do the switch out, though. I need to have it done while the temps are decent, of course.

Anyone else had this done before? I looked all over the centerpoint website, and they have squat about requesting a temporary disconnect.

should be able to open your meter and kill at the master..

You can call them and arrange for a service disconnect.

However ...

Centerpoint requires a permit in order to turn it back on. A permit must be pulled by a master electrician per State Law.

So ...

Unless you want to do it hot, you'll need to hire someone.

Maybe the law changed since I last read it, I was sure a homeowner is legally permitted to do any work themselves, so long as it complies with code. Centerpoint very well may still require an electrician's approval, but the state doesn't legally require an electrician to do the work.

I just don't want to drop a grand for an electrician if I don't have to. The parts I'll need only total about $300, and the whole job MIGHT take 3 hours.

Still, it wouldn't surprise me if the electricians had managed to get such a regulation passed to cement their labor cartel's undisputed right to do electrical work.



[This message has been edited by MouthBQ98 (edited 2/14/2012 2:21p).]

CPT requires a permit and you cannot get a homeowners permit for electrical.

Bummer. Looks like the electricians have used the legislature, their guild process and their relationships with big business to force out all potential competition. They've probably also got more or less an unspoken price fixing agreement in place too, much like the legal profession.

I guess I'll have to start calling around to see if they all give me about the same bid.

I have to wonder if the permit is a legal liability protection issue, or if its a kickback to the BEW union in Centerpoint's territory.

I feel your pain. I could swap out the panel in my garage for $50 in parts, but an electrician is going to start at $800.

Yep, it is what it is I suppose. Thanks for the warning! Glad I didn't buy any of the materials yet.

You don't have a main disconnect? I thought one of those was required. I have a disconnect at a pole, and then another one outside the house. I can kill either or both and completely kill power right at the meter.

me too....

Dang it, I just looked, my JM bud isn't in Spring anymore.

City of Spring can be funny about homeowner permits; they are on the books, but they can be a pain to get.

Which is where knowing someone at the local sparky-shop is handy. The office often has nearly-complete permits to go file for a number of simple/standard work orders.

Also, a local JM sparky often knows the right number at the Electrical supplier to come out and do a "service call" rather than a full Utility Work Order (some utilities have those set up to where you can have no more than one per day).

Now, as to whether it's "protectionism" . . . Well, that case could be better made if simply having a law stopped all non-licensed work.
In fact, these laws actually seem to increase the amount of jack-leg work, to my experience.

Which is sad, as that has-no-clue, it's-close-enough jackleg work is a serious danger, and people have paid the price for it in blood, too. Most building codes are written that way, "in blood," and often only represent the bare minimums for health, safety, and welfare.

Now, in a sensible world, a JM Electrician probably ought to be able to pop a tamper seal and work on a meter, and then put all that back, too. If there is protectionism, it's from the Power Companies creating make-work for their support staff.

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The "main breaker" is down stream from the meter and is usually part of the breaker panel. It is possible to have a hard disconnect, but that is not the norm in residential construction.

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That sucks. That's too bad too, because its handy as hell to be able to kill your house at the meter for working if you need to.

My panel has a main switch which is fine for changing/adding breakers, but it is part of the panel itself, so it doesnt' help at all for a complete replacement.

I am 100% for following code and regulation. Basic home wiring isn't all that complex. The funny part is they'll let you build the entire house, and wire it yourself, and they'll give you power. (it has to pass an inspection, after all!) I know that for a fact from relatives that have serves as their own contractors on home builds and done the wiring themselves. It seems, however that for changes/add-ons/upgrades, they're more picky?

[This message has been edited by MouthBQ98 (edited 2/14/2012 5:27p).]

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Maybe the law changed since I last read it, I was sure a homeowner is legally permitted to do any work themselves,

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Different municipalities required different things. There are a few small towns that would let you build a nuclear reactor in your basement. On the other hand, to add a receptacle to your home in the City of Selma, they required an application, a permit, licensing info for your electrician, and a copy of said electrician's insurance faxed directly to the city naming them as additionally insured. Once TDLR created the statewide license, many of the homeowner rules started disappearing.

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Still, it wouldn't surprise me if the electricians had managed to get such a regulation passed to cement their labor cartel's undisputed right to do electrical work.

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CDUB, is that you?

You overestimate the relationshiop between IBEW and open shops. They are too busy fighting over JM to apprentice ratios. Replace electricians/electrical above with plumbers/plumbing, lawyers/legal, doctors/medical. One might argue that having trades do their respective work prevents things like piggy-backed breakers. And yes, as Capn points out, however, you still have dumbassery in every field.

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a JM Electrician probably ought to be able to pop a tamper seal and work on a meter, and then put all that back, too.

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The old crusty ME has a bag full of utility seals in the glovebox. (Psst, the numbers on them don't mean squat).

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Basic home wiring isn't all that complex.

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The devil's in the details.

Be specific when getting pricing. Give them the size of the panel, number and type of breakers it has, and what you want to add. Otherwise you're going to get nine versions of "what ya oughta do is..." There's also a decent possibility you may get bitten by the you touched it rule. What goes back in as a replacement has to meet the 2011 NEC, or 08 if they haven't switched, which means welcome to AFCI breakers.

And most (new) resi construction takes advantage of the "six-handle rule" where you actually have 6 "main" circuit breakers.

Have the ME just install a main cutoff...do the panel yourself...

Just get all of the parts you need and stop paying your bill. Be ready for when they shut off your power for non payment and then do the work. When you are done, pay your bill and get the power turned back on.

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Side question. With the new smart meters, can they shut your electricity off without spinning the meter? If not, that could be a cheap way to get them to disconnect and reconnect the meter. No way the guy coming back to hook up the meter would notice a new panel.

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HA!!! You think it is going to cost the customer less to use the features of the Smart meters?

The disconnect and reconnect fees are going to remain the same with the new meters, the power company will just pocket the difference. Isn't it great that YOU paid to allow the power company to save that money?

Call Centerpoint.

see the last line of this FAQ

http://www.centerpointenergy.com/services/electricity/residential/smartmeters/faq/#52

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The automated capabilities of smart meters, such as remote reading, connection and disconnection, and automatic outage notification, do not require the consumer to have any electronic device or expertise other than the smart meter.

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Call me paranoid, but I wouldn't get a warm fuzzy relying on a remote connection to de-energize something I was about to start working on.

And, to be a bit more precise, my meaning was that a JME, what with the State licensing and all, ought to be legally able to pull and replace a meter if the work requires it.

If only in the legal parity of the kinds of work a JM plumber can do. (I'd even argue that a panel replacement ought to be just like a WH replacement; office has a stack fill-in-name-and-address permits, and a JM & helper goes out to do the actual work, any time, any day.)

I should have been more clear, but my "righteous indignation" button had been pushed on a different forum by some donkey-clown stating that, since all contractors is thievin' crooks, an' most houses don' burn down, then lamp cord and backstab fixtures otta be gud 'nuff, and shou't be no gubmint thiev'n permit fees at all, som' sorta conspir'y'cee like putting the chlorine inna water an' all . . .

(Noticed today that another commenter recommended that the donkey-clown ought spend the extra $5 for the higher-quality meth than he was getting . . .

"Thread drift"?

Issat some sort of racing with Asian-made sewing machines?

The hell with thread drift, let's go for all out hijack.

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lamp cord and backstab fixtures otta be gud 'nuff,

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Coworker had some work done out at her ranch by her now ex-son-in-law. She asked me to look at it, because in her words, "even to my liberal arts ass, it just don't look right."

There used to be a single 120V, 20A circuit from a load center in the garage that ran out to the barn. Insulation on the aerial cable was just sun beat to death, and needed replacing. SIL decided they would save about 30 feet of wire by
1. Piggy backing the line side of the condensing unit disconnect.
2. With NM cable
3. Like plain ol' interior Romex.
4. That fed out the face of the disconnect where they bent up the corner of the cover (it was already starting to rub.)
5. Romex fed a 20A, 2-pole circuit breaker in a small enclosure.
6. Circuit breaker fed another stretch of Romex that was half assed spliced to UF cable, which ran to the barn.
7. Run to the barn was supported by three fence posts, two trees, and duct tape.
8. It was spliced again to Romex at the barn, with duct tape, which in turn fed a receptacle.
9. A 120V, 20A receptacle.

The donkey-clown (If I may borrow the expression) ran 240V to a 120V recep without realizing what he'd done. He plugged in a lamp and a sprayer to an extension cord (naturally), and then plugged the cord into the recep. Fried the lamp, the sprayer, tripped the breaker (fortunately), welded one of the wires at the enclosure to the terminal, and jacked up the AC disconnect enclosure.

To save 30' of wire.

And made roughly $800 in the process.

EDIT: should say the SIL was paid somewhere about $800 for his "labor" and material to essentially rinse out an open wound with dirty mop water and then slap a used bandaid on it. For a beer and a Bill Miller sandwich, I ripped it out for her.


[This message has been edited by UnderoosAg (edited 2/16/2012 1:41a).]

Underoos - where are you located?

San Antonio. Never played much in Houston, but I can steer you to a couple of pretty good small shops in my neighborhood.

Sounds like one of my horror stories. Called in to look at a relatively new metal barn for an insurance co where there had been a couple of small fires inside. Park in front, get out and there is an extension cord that has been poked through the tin on the side of the building laying there. It was yellow at one time but is now "overloaded plastic" color. Something in the back of my head said "check it". Sure enough....the 120 rated cord had 240 volts for the tank heater on the tractor to keep it warm overnight when plugged in. It went downhill from there. They ran individual wires (not in conduit) to the fans on the side of the building. Where they came to the framing for the fan, they just nailed the tin right over the wires/framing to the fan. Several places in the building the tin had rubbed the insulation off over time as the wires vibrated and the arcing to the metal siding was the ignition source of the fires.

At several points they used 2 strands of barbed wire overhead (1 hot, 1 neutral) held up with nylon baling twine strung to the ceiling every 10 foot or so to supply a box with a duplex receptacle. Their argument was it was "guarded by location" and didn't need to be insulated. They didn't appreciate my humor when I mentioned I had never seen a UL rating on a piece of barbed wire. When I called the utility and told them the building should be disconnected because it was an accident waiting to happen, the barn owner told me in no uncertain terms I was wrong and didn't know squat.....because the barn was wired by the local Ag teacher and he has national awards. Turns out his specialty was beef cattle judging. Electricity and ag mechanics....not so much.

Barbed wire...wow.

From a grey suit at A&M:

Co-working "lictrician" once wired a dorm hallway lights incorrectly (after the fact). When my friend went to cut power to them and take them down to install new ones, he cut the black wire at the switch and proceeded to start disconnecting everything.

Low and behold, everything was still powered as he was shocked with 277V from the lights. Turns out, the black was the ground, green hot and white neutral. When the original installer, the "lictrician", was asked, his repsonse...

"Electricity doesn't care about the color of the wire; why should I?"

~egon

I didn't read any of the other posts so SIAP but..
my father and I replaced the entire breaker box when wiring out shop so we clipped the little anti -tamper lock, pulled the meter, did our work and put the meter back in.
We met the GCEC guy and explained the situation and took the brief scolding but he was understanding.

Remember, one hand in your pocket...