I need to run 3/4" PVC down to my chicken coop, about 150' worth. SInce i have to dig a trench for that, i want to put electrical down there as well, except it would only be about 70 feet worth. Since i hate digging, id like to put the electrical conduit and the PVC pipe in the same hole. Something tells me this is not a good idea, but then again, it seems like its OK.

Any comments or solutions?

Depends on where you're located. I think the only thing you'll have to do is maintain some minimum vertical clearance.

I installed all of the utilities @ my parents house. Electrical came off a different corner but gas, water, and telephone all went in the same trench. We did have to keep 24 inches between the electrical and gas where the trenches crossed but that was 400amp service to the house. Phone, water, and gas were able to go in side by side but we had to have 12 inches between the gas and some buried power that we were running back into the yard.

BTW why are you looking at conduit for the electrical? Why not direct bury romex? Also save yourself some headache in the future. As you infill your ditch, when it's still ~8 inches deep roll out some red caution tape in it before you completely fill it up.

You cannot direct bury romex without putting it in conduit.....but you can direct bury UF or USE.

just put the romex in gray electrical pvc.

pretty much why the have electrical conduit.

I dont care what I use, as long as I can get electricity and water down to them....and preferably in the same hole.

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just put the romex in gray electrical pvc.

pretty much why the have electrical conduit.

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Yeah, but there is not problem throwing in water PVC and then the Electrical PVC conduit on top and burying it?

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BTW why are you looking at conduit for the electrical? Why not direct bury romex?

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Because i THINK its cheaper to get romex and conduit than direct bury romex.

[This message has been edited by jed1154 (edited 3/13/2010 3:19p).]

Stranger... Sorry wasn't refering to burying traditional romex. Was refering to the stuff you mentioned that is rated for direct bury which is what we used.

jed...in answer to your primary question, there is nothing in the NEC prohibiting electrical and water in the same trench. Only issue would be if your local authorities added something.


[This message has been edited by Lone Stranger (edited 3/14/2010 12:06p).]

OK, it looks like its quite a bit cheaper to buy 250' indoor romex for the same cost of 100' direct bury.

Another question, have several open 15 amp breakers. For the chicken coop, i would probably at the most run 1 maybe two 250w heat lamps if it got really cold. Aside from that, its just simple lighting, but i would like to be able to use my circular saw when needed.

Now, can I accomplish all of this with a 15amp breaker and 14ga wire? Or...should i pull the 15 amp breaker, put in a 20 GFCI breaker and run 12ga.

I already bought 12/2 romex, because I though thtat would be better, but I can get 14ga if that is more appropriate.

Last, i assume this circuit needs to be GFCI since its outside, even though everything is inside a structure outside?

[This message has been edited by jed1154 (edited 3/14/2010 8:29p).]

I think technically for outdoor conduit usage, you are not supposed to run Romex through the conduit. It needs to be THWN rated wire, with the W being for wet usage. It is sold individually by the foot at Home Depot.

I have cable (NM rated romex) that goes from the house to my wellhouse that is in buried conduit, and its standard Romex. Installed by the builder...inspector didnt say anything about it. I even had a licensed electrician out that worked around it and said nothing.





[This message has been edited by jed1154 (edited 3/15/2010 10:45a).]

Well, before we go any further, what about the setup, a 20amp GFCI breaker and 12/2 wiring...run would be about 100 feet, feeding nothng but a couple of heat lamps at teh most or a circular saw or standard lights.

Yes. 20 amp with 12-2w ground every day and twice on Sundays over a 15 amp with 14-2w ground. For the relatively small increase in price, that extra 5 amps before the breaker trips is huge when you are running a circular saw through a big knot in a 2x8 while the lights are on.

OK, then I will do that. Ill have to put a new breaker in the panel and wire it up.

Still curious about why I have romex in underground buried conduit and it not being seen as a problem by the inspector and two electricians. Maybe because its a run less than 25 feet?

Is this against 'code', or just something that is not advised?

I have never heard it wasn't code and I've dealt with inspectors in plenty of states that didn't mention anything when it occurred on jobs so I looked. I can't find anything in the code that specifically makes it against code. I checked a couple of code forums and see that several states in the northeast make it illegal below ground but legal above ground as long as it is for physical protection. I found lots of inspectors in those forums saying there wasn't anything in the code that prohibits it. They did add that people get confused when they get red tagged for not following the conduit fill requirements for air space when putting romex in conduit. You still have to have the same air space left over regardless of what you put in there. Romex takes up more space than 3 wires so theoretically, you might end up with a romex cable that physically fit inside a certain size of conduit but didn't leave enough empty airspace to satisfy the conduit fill rules.

Well, im more concerned with problems or safety issues with running 12/2 NM romex in 1/2 PVC conduit underground for 100 feet or so. If its not against code, i suppose its probably ok....

Thanks for the info!

I AM A MASTER ELECTRICAN, WHO CONTRACTS FOR A LIVING!!!

1. We do not install water and power in the same ditch. It is a safety issue if both lines are damaged at the same time by someone who does not know they are there.

2. You can pull romex in conduit, but why? If you are installing conduit, why not buy single strands of wire and pull them with a fishtape. Romex has the outer jacket for physical protection. PVC is physical protection. We do not install romex in PVC unless we are in the middle of nowhere and it is a last resort. It is a cost prohibitive when compared to the cost of THHN wire.

3. Grey PVC is a sunlight resistant conduit. It will still burn up in sunlight.

4. Direct burial romex is not against the code if it is UF romex.

5. Direct burial romex is not a good idea, because ground squirrels love it. The first time it is 20 degrees and you have a hangover, the something won't work.

6. 100' is the maximum distance for a 20A circuit. 125' needs a 15A breaker or wire upsized to #10 for 20A. The voltage drop will damage electric motors.

7. Nearly all building wire is dual rated THHN/THWN. The two h's in THHN mean it is rated for 90 degrees celcius, while HW is a 75 degree celcius rated wire. You can buy true rubber coated wire, but it is very expensive. Like water well downhole wire.

My reccomendation would be to dig two ditches 24" apart, 24" deep, install the properly named digging tape (water and electricity) 12" below grade and pull 4-#10 THHN wires in a piece of 3/4" grey PVC and save the 12-2 romex to wire my building. Run your water in the other ditch. Hedge for the future and have the capability of a 30A-240v service.

YES! Now were talking!

Im going to measure and see exactly how long the run will be.

Keep in mind, this is for a chicken coop...to provide light and heat if needed. And im really only doing that because I was already digging one trench. If Its not safe to put wire and water in the same trench, then i may forgo electric altogether.

What about the issue of condensation with the conduit?

Also, why pull 4 wires? I won't need that if i never go with 240 service...which i won't. Its a chicken coop.

[This message has been edited by jed1154 (edited 3/19/2010 12:28p).]

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My reccomendation would be to dig two ditches 24" apart, 24" deep, install the properly named digging tape (water and electricity) 12" below grade and pull 4-#10 THHN wires in a piece of 3/4" grey PVC and save the 12-2 romex to wire my building. Run your water in the other ditch. Hedge for the future and have the capability of a 30A-240v service.

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I am curious why you recommend running #10 wires if it would be connected to a 20-amp circuit where only #12 is required. I am going to be running conduit out to my garage soon and I bought #12 THWN wires for a 20-amp circuit so I was wondering if I bought the right thing.

He is saying that because of the voltage drop at that distance. 12 would be fine until you actually pull 20amps, in which case you could damage the motor you're running. At least thats what I understand. If you use a 15amp breaker, then no problem.

Although im confused because based on other caluclators for a 100foot one way distance, anda 20amp circuit, i should need #8 wire.

As for cost, according to the home store, running 3 independant 12ga or 10ga wires over the 12ga romex would be more than TWICE the cost in wire alone....how do you figure it is cheaper than the romex?

[This message has been edited by jed1154 (edited 3/19/2010 10:11p).]

OK I see now. I think my run is less than 80 feet, so I should be fine with #12.

My run is about 100', 110' if you include breaker to point of use...so 110' total.

The only thing that will ever be running on this circuit is a circular saw (by itself) or lights, or a 250W heat lamp.... None will be running at teh same time except lights and heat lamp maybe, but they won't be continuous load.

[This message has been edited by jed1154 (edited 3/20/2010 3:13p).]

I reccomended running #10 to an amimal barn in case he ever needed to upgrade to a 30A circuit. If you put a sub-panel at the barn, you have two hots, a neutral and a ground. 125' to 150' are the distances you need to really start worrying about voltage drop. This is only if you are running electric motors. They will get hot with low voltage.

As far as wire expense, WE get more value out of single spools of wire than romex. Price wise, today on Lowes' website, 12-2 romex was $280m (thousand feet)while #12 solid was $110m or $330m compared to a three wire romex. #10 romex was $760m compared to #10 solid at $180m or $540m compared to a three wire romex. Romex does not have a slick pulling shield and is difficult to pull in PVC if it is dirty or if you do not use wire pulling lubricate.

It is my experience that by upsizing what people think they need, you can usually install what they really want.

For people that don't comprehend amps when related to comsumption, a 20 amp/120 volt circuit breaker will carry 1980 watts without tripping a NEW breaker. This is the reason most bathrooms receptacles won't carry a 1000 watt flat iron and a 1500 watt hair dryer at the same time, or they constantly trip the GFCI receptacle.

Thanks for the info. This is just an 8x8 coop...not a barn.

What if I make it a 15A breaker? Will it be 'to code' to run THHN/THWN #12...110' total?

Even if I run TWO 250 watt heat lamps (which is really unnecessary, its WELL under the amperage limit. What I need to accomplish is light down there. It will never be a barn or a circuit that feeds another building. 99% of the time, it will have a 100W bulb and thats about it.

Also, if this is OK, do you, professionally speaking, since i HAVE 12/2 Romex see any problems with putting it IN conduit BURIED in teh ground? It will be encased in conduit from breaker to point of use.

[This message has been edited by jed1154 (edited 3/21/2010 1:04a).]

Pull the romex. It is all good. You are fine.

If I end up burning my chicken coop down, Ill be giving you a call.

Hopefully, i can get out there before they get overdone and tough!

[This message has been edited by jed1154 (edited 3/22/2010 12:22p).]

All wire is rated for 75 deg and 90 deg. 75 deg will have lower rating than 90.

You can't/shouldn't use the 90 deg rating because you can bet that none of your panels, breakers, etc. Will be rated for 90 deg. This is a huge problem because too many people that should know this don't know it.

Electrical conduit is not water tight. You should not put wire that is not spec'd for burial in buried conduit. Depending on ground water levels in your location the conduit will surely get full of water.

so 7 years later OP, any issues?