My dad is in declining health, and our small ranch is about to be inherited by 4 children as undivided interest. We will likely set up an LLC after his passing. Is there any reason to survey it? There are no liens, and the title is clear.

Not an expert but I would talk to the estate lawyer. My gut say no not until you sell

No need to survey unless you plan to divide or if you have a boundary concern.

Also I would be much more concerned about undivided interest then land boundaries. I've seen way too many threads here how that can become a huge pain in the ass

Only three reasons to survey:

Selling
Borrowing money on it
Dividing it among heirs

If you have a good legal description, you should be good for now.
Selling/splitting, surveying, yes.

Undivided is hard.

Martin Cash said:

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Only three reasons to survey:

Selling
Borrowing money on it
Dividing it among heirs

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I bet my client who lost 34 acres of developable College Station ISD land to adverse possession would like a word.

Not necessary at this time. On another note, it looks like the estate plan is to transfer the property through a will/probate?

Would agree with it not being necessary, but I do not see any harm in doing one now. Better to know any issues now vs down the road. You could all get together and decide to split the property or sell your interest to another sibling. Best to know any boundary issues, easements, flood plains, etc from the start as I would assume its been a number of years since a survey was done.

I would recommend to know the exact number of acres. Inherited land from my mother that was purchased by my grandfather in 1942. Property was never surveyed. Siblings and I decided to get the land surveyed to keep from having any possible issues when we decide to sell the property. Survey showed we actually owned 14 acres more. Also discovered a fence line discrepancy.

normaleagle05 said:

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Martin Cash said:

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Only three reasons to survey:

Selling
Borrowing money on it
Dividing it among heirs

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I bet my client who lost 34 acres of developable College Station ISD land to adverse possession would like a word.

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Damn. That's significant. Are you able to share any other details on exactly how this happened?

Wvpd0707 said:

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I would recommend to know the exact number of acres. Inherited land from my mother that was purchased by my grandfather in 1942. Property was never surveyed. Siblings and I decided to get the land surveyed to keep from having any possible issues when we decide to sell the property. Survey showed we actually owned 14 acres more. Also discovered a fence line discrepancy.

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Fence line discrepancy happens. When I bought 40 acres in Burnet County, Capital Farm Credit wanted a survey to make the loan as my property was part of a larger ranch that was bought and being sold by a middleman who was carving it up.

I found that one of the existing boundary fence lines encroached 9 - 15 feet onto the neighbor's property which was fine with my lender. If it was the other way around I was told it could be a problem. Inheriting the property you don't have lender issues.

I also bought and sold a lot overlooking San Antonio in Helotes. It was sold to me as a 3/4-acre lot. I had it surveyed and found out it was actually 1.2 acres which worked to my advantage when I sold.

Agilaw said:

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Not necessary at this time. On another note, it looks like the estate plan is to transfer the property through a will/probate?

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Will. We are forming an LLC.

B-1 83...so sorry to hear about your Dad's declining health.

Like many on this forum, I don't think there is a need to survey the property. However, I do think at one point you may want the land to be surveyed.

Many years ago, my wife's grandfather died, and the land passed to her mother. Literally, the land had not been surveyed since the 1900's, as it's been in the family longer than that. The most recent survey from way back when was done with a unit of measurement called a 'Vera,' which I understand was common with Texas land grants.

Out of curiosity, and estate planning, my Mother in Law had the property surveyed. Needless to say, the old survey was not accurate, and the new survey (this was back in the early 90's), showed there were considerably more acres than thought.

Good luck on this issue, and again my condolences on your Dad's health.

ToddyHill said:

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B-1 83...so sorry to hear about your Dad's declining health.

Like many on this forum, I don't think there is a need to survey the property. However, I do think at one point you may want the land to be surveyed.

Many years ago, my wife's grandfather died, and the land passed to her mother. Literally, the land had not been surveyed since the 1900's, as it's been in the family longer than that. The most recent survey from way back when was done with a unit of measurement called a 'Vera,' which I understand was common with Texas land grants.

Out of curiosity, and estate planning, my Mother in Law had the property surveyed. Needless to say, the old survey was not accurate, and the new survey (this was back in the early 90's), showed there were considerably more acres than thought.

Good luck on this issue, and again my condolences on your Dad's health.

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Vara - Spanish land measurement 33-1/3 inches. Very common in central and south Texas.

Ribeye-Rare said:

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normaleagle05 said:

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Martin Cash said:

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Only three reasons to survey:

Selling
Borrowing money on it
Dividing it among heirs

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I bet my client who lost 34 acres of developable College Station ISD land to adverse possession would like a word.

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Damn. That's significant. Are you are to share any other details on exactly how this happened?

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Don't let other people fence your place for a long time AND don't hire bad surveyors that are just gonna follow those fences. Those were both failure points in that deal.

It's public record now but I'm not going to post a direct link to it here. You can find it if you look hard enough.

Quote:

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Don't let other people fence your place for a long time AND don't hire bad surveyors that are just gonna follow those fences. Those were both failure points in that deal.

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Thanks. May I assume the bad surveyors were hired by the party who 'lost' the property and not by an adjacent landowner?

If the former, does the surveyor have liability in a case like this?

I ask because I'm familiar with a number of places (non-platted) where the fences were not always exactly on the 'line' and in many cases were moved a few feet to avoid obstructions like giant trees. Later, the surveyor for the adjacent landowner (who is selling) just, as you said, follows the fence line and will even drive his own stake on this (wrong) boundary. Of course, in these cases the loss/gain is usually less than 5' times the length of the boundary, I suppose. But still...

I'm dealing with this and found the local title company attorneys to be very helpful on the cheap

normaleagle05 said:

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Ribeye-Rare said:

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normaleagle05 said:

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Martin Cash said:

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Only three reasons to survey:

Selling
Borrowing money on it
Dividing it among heirs

---

I bet my client who lost 34 acres of developable College Station ISD land to adverse possession would like a word.

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Damn. That's significant. Are you are to share any other details on exactly how this happened?

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Don't let other people fence your place for a long time AND don't hire bad surveyors that are just gonna follow those fences. Those were both failure points in that deal.

It's public record now but I'm not going to post a direct link to it here. You can find it if you look hard enough.

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Unfortunately you do have some bad surveyors out there just like any profession has good and bad workers.

Generally speaking, Fences are just lines of occupation and are not property lines. There are some rare instances where a boundary line agreement was put together calling the fence between landowners as the property line but again that's a rare case.

Also, when dealing with properties that have not been surveyed in 50+ years there are times where the fence is the best available evidence as to where the property line is. Way back then surveyors would set wood stakes for the property corners which tend to rot away or made rock piles which get destroyed. So, it can be rather difficult at times following the footsteps of the original surveyor trying to re-establish what was done.

I have dealt with a number of landowners upset with me because they discovered the fence line was 3-5' off the property line or more. That is when I spend some extra time with them showing them the last survey, reading what it says and explain what I found.

I think some of these bad surveyors will follow a fence line mainly to avoid any issues since most people believe the fence line is the property line. These surveyors need to be reminded our job is to follow the footsteps of the previous surveyor, not the fence builder.

All parcels were purchased and surveyed in the early 80s, for what it's worth.

Ribeye-Rare said:

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Quote:

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Don't let other people fence your place for a long time AND don't hire bad surveyors that are just gonna follow those fences. Those were both failure points in that deal.

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Thanks. May I assume the bad surveyors were hired by the party who 'lost' the property and not by an adjacent landowner?
In this case yes, but a similar issue can come from either side.

If the former, does the surveyor have liability in a case like this?
Yes, but only until the 10 year statute of repose has run out.

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Quote:

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These surveyors need to be reminded our job is to follow the footsteps of the previous surveyor, not the fence builder.

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Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that a previous surveyor did in fact err and drove his stakes on a line that was not the 'true' property line.

Now, Mr. Good Surveyor comes along years later and discovers this error. Is the new surveyor bound to follow the errant line? If not, how is this type of thing properly corrected?

Thanks.

Note that he said "original surveyor" before he said "previous surveyor".

The surveyor's duty is to the former. If there is an appreciable difference between the two, the duty is to report it. As surveyors, we are fact finders. What those facts mean is a matter of law for your attorney to fight out.

ETA: Alternate construction is a very important part of a surveyor's job. And it is lost on many.