Not sure how to react to what I received in the mail today.....need the power of TexAgs to guide me in my moment of anger.

I received a package from the listing agent on our current home, which we purchased in July 2002. In the package, she states she was cleaning out her archive files, and found two documents that she though we might want. 1st was two clean copies of the house plat completed in 1998, and the 2nd was two copies of the engineer's report for the foundation pier work completed also in 1998. The problem I have was that the pier installations were not disclosed by the seller at the time of purchase, and these documents were in the possession of the listing agent. The repairs made were not disclosed to myself, my realtor, or the house inspector who completed the inspection prior to sale.

Now if I had found out that the previous home owner had held these documents and not disclosed the repairs, I could possibly understand (because it would be clearly my fault for trusting the home inspection completed), but am I wrong to expect that the listing agent was the responsible party for disclosing the foundation repairs made?

If I were you I'd lawyer up.

I would have to see your seller's disclosure from 2002 to answer your question. On the current seller's disclosure from the Texas Association of Realtors in Section 3 there is a box to check off if there have been any repairs made to foundation that the sellers know about. If this box was not checked yes it sounds like you did not get full disclosure.

If you resell at some point in the future you will be required by law to answer "yes" to your awareness of previous foundation repairs now that you have the report. I suppose you could make a case for damages if you could establish that the sales price of your home would have been lower if this knowledge had been disclosed by the seller.

yeah, be sure it isn't something that was provided to you, but you overlooked it

I think you definitely should have been given the documents and had the information disclosed. But why "lawyer up?" Have you had problems since? How long ago did you buy the house? Foundation repairs are ridiculously common. Done correctly, a repaired foundation may actually be better than the original. If you had no indication of problems other than the paperwork you just received, what exactly would you ask for knowing this new information?

In the inspector's defense, foundation repairs are not always apparent from just looking outside. If had been done some time ago, so that the bushes and soil did not look new, there may very well have been no visual clues that it had happened. When I inspect a house, I honestly don't really care if it had foundation repairs in the past, I am looking at the performance at that moment. As long as that is okay, the past repair does not matter from the inspector's point of view. But, again, from a disclosure position, you should have been told.

Depending on the time frame of when you bought the home and when the repairs were completed and whether or not you or your inspector noted any kind of foundation movement, you are probably okay. If your purchase was really recent and you can prove that the information was not disclosed, ie you have the disclosure in your paperwork, I would request that the listing agent/seller pay to have an engineer come out and do an elevation survey. That way you get a document that will show the exact levels of the foundation now and confirm that the repairs are holding. The new information can be compared to the one from 1998 and you will know exactly where you stand from a foundation movement standpoint (assuming the report she sent has an elevation survey.) In the long run this can actually become a positive thing for you when you go to sell, you can show that the foundation is stable.

The listing agent is just that, an "agent". They act on the seller's behalf. If either the seller OR their agent knew that the slab had been worked on then they're required to disclose that info.

Assuming that was not disclosed, then you bought the house with the presumption that the slab had never been worked on based on the info they gave you. You now own a house with a foundation that has been worked on (good/bad/otherwise) and you are required to disclose that information if and when when you sell it. That clearly may affect the resale value of your home.

For that reason, I'd get a lawyer to advise me how to proceed. It's not about whether or not your slab is currently in good shape or whether or not it will cause any future problems. It's about the perceived resale value of your home being different than what it could be without previous slab issues. I think you may deserve compensation for that and I think a lawyer familiar with these situations is your best option to resolve the situation in your favor.

Really appreciate the responses here. I'm confirming tonight what our closing documents stated, but I'm 99% certain that the work was not disclosed.

As far as why I would chase this...This is the largest item to date that I have found left out of the seller's disclosure list. Numerous smaller items that should have been noted were not, and I overlooked them to date. This is the largest cost item so far, and I am convinced that it would have affected the final purchase price of the house. The appraised value was based on a current inspection at the time of the purchase, and did not include the foundation repair information. Assuming that the repairs would have affected the value of the house negatively, there would have been a discounted price on the house. Then with the possible discounted price on the house once I intend to sell (which will be within the next 12-24 months), it possibly means I could lose a possible 1-5% of value payed out, and value received on current purchase price.

I also could be way wrong on my thoughts, but I definitely want to present the information to someone with a knowledge base that better than mine on this issue.

If the repairs were completed acceptably, what effect would that have on the appraisal?

If it was listed on MLS, the seller's disclosure might still be available online. If you pm the address, I'll look and see if I can see anything.

You would have to ask a appraiser or maybe an agent would know as far as values. It is actually an interesting question/discussion, I am eager to see some responses from our agents and appraisers.

My thoughts:

Obviously current foundation problems would negatively affect your value; but I am not sure that past repairs really do - if, big if, everything checks out okay now after the repairs. If at the time you bought the home, you or the inspector had noted foundation concerns and they had been confirmed and repairs suggested by a licensed structural engineer - then there is a big price negotiation point for the sale. But if everything is okay? I could but wrong, but I don't think you would be able to negotiate much of a discount just because the foundation had repair in the past.

The fact is that when we buy a used house, it is used and none of them are perfect. In my experience, from when I look through disclosures, they are not really designed to give as much information as you would think. Lots of things get left off. Given the knowledge level of many homeowners, it is not really a stretch that in many cases they may have been ignorant of the problems (obviously not if they paid thousands of dollars for foundation repair specifically.) I hate foreclosures because the banks gleefully state that they are breaking the disclosure chain and have no knowledge of anything. On my own house that was five years old when I bought it, the disclosure was a joke (the seller was a realtor so had some knowledge of what was going on) and there were several little annoying things that I discovered after moving in that I did not find when I inspected it. But who knows if the seller had any idea about them or not.

Like I said before, in DFW at least, foundation repairs are so common and accepted as common, I think you could make a reasonable argument that a properly repaired foundation with a lifetime warranty is better than a non repaired foundation with no warranty. Either way there is no guarantee that you will not have some sort of abnormal movement in the future, but the first probably gives you better protection by way of the foundation company warranty.



[This message has been edited by Absolute (edited 2/3/2010 12:42p).]

Some people absolutely do not want to see foundation issues, completely repaired or not, when looking for a house. It's just a straight up deal breaker for them.

It doesn't bother me, but it does some, and that reduces the number of potential buyers which makes the house harder to sell.

There's a reason they were required to disclose the information in the first place, because it affects value.

There are three types of foundations:

1.) Those who have had foundation repair
2.) Those who who need foundation repair
3.) Those who will need foundation repair.

With an older home, it's almost a sure deal that there will be some sort of issues with the foundation. If done correctly and warranted, I would say having foundation repair is a plus.

Obviously they should have disclosed this to you but I don't think it should adversely effect your resale value.

quote:

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Some people absolutely do not want to see foundation issues, completely repaired or not, when looking for a house. It's just a straight up deal breaker for them.

It doesn't bother me, but it does some, and that reduces the number of potential buyers which makes the house harder to sell.

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It really just depends on the area and age of the home.

If you're talking about a neighborhood built in the 1950's, you'll be hard pressed to find a home that hasn't had some sort of repairs done (or isn't in need of repairs).

[This message has been edited by Diggity (edited 2/3/2010 12:54p).]

We're talking slab on grade in Richardson here, and built in 1978.

In my experience, knowing no specifics, it would be very typical for that house to have had repairs at 20 years. I know of neighborhoods in Plano and Richardson, in that age group, that you would be hard pressed to find a house that had not had repairs. Dig's comment about have, need and will need sounds a bit cliche, but honestly is more true than not.

If you had not received that information in the mail would you have had any clues that anything had been done? Have you noticed any signs since living there that have worried you, being as objective as possible and thinking in terms of before you got the disclosure information?

Just playing devil's advocate a bit, and maybe ease your worry if possible. If they did not disclose repair to you, you have a legitimate beef. But whether or not that translates into some legitimate monetary or quantitative settlement is really hard to say.

I also agree that you have a legitimate beef with the listing agent.

My comments were more about foundation problems in general.

"might" have a legitimate beef....review your paperwork

Review the paperwork as everyone has said. See what it says on the sellers disclosure.

It is going to be hard to prove anything. The listing agent could say that they told your Realtor. Is there a way to prove that they did or did not do that? It should still be on the disclosure however.

Who did the foundation work? Are they still in business? Did they provide a warranty? Most foundation companies have lifetime transferable warranties. That would mean that your foundation is still covered.

Having a fixed foundation on an older home is a plus to me. We have issues with foundation here as well and any older home either has foundation issues or had had foundation issues. As far as market value, I would just market the house like normal. Sell it at the same value as the other houses around.

If you really want to know if the foundation is still moving then I would suggest doing what Absolute said. And if there was no disclosure then I would try and get the listing agent to pay for it.