Delta sent a WARN notice to GA labor dept saying they could furlough up to 800 pilots.

They were burning through $100 Million a day during March. They have reduced that to about $25 Million a day in June.

SWA is burning $20M per day

Standing by for the government furloughs..,, I won't hold my breath.

I heard from a friend that a mutual friend (SWA pilot) is being furloughed for 5 years at 100k/year plus benefits. He was under the impression that our mutual friends salary is 150-170k.

proudaggie02 said:

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I heard from a friend that a mutual friend (SWA pilot) is being furloughed for 5 years at 100k/year plus benefits. He was under the impression that our mutual friends salary is 150-170k.

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From what I've been told, that is not actually a furlough, it was the deal they got for early separation. SWA offered early retirement and separation to everyone, to avoid having to do any layoffs. Pilots who took it seem to have made out the best. The rest of the regular employees are not getting that same level or kinds of packages.

Not familiar with DALs plans though.

Wife of an SWA pilot told me that they receive a minimum guaranteed salary regardless of whether they fly/how many flights they make.

I think that's different than some of the other airlines, United in particular (if I'm remembering correctly what a friend who flies for them told me).

proudaggie02 said:

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I heard from a friend that a mutual friend (SWA pilot) is being furloughed for 5 years at 100k/year plus benefits. He was under the impression that our mutual friends salary is 150-170k.

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5 years at 100K+ isn't to just get you off the payrolls, thats to keep you from being first in line when the demand returns.

I wonder if that guy's compensation bars him from being a commercial pilot elsewhere for any amount of time.

TXTransplant said:

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Wife of an SWA pilot told me that they receive a minimum guaranteed salary regardless of whether they fly/how many flights they make.

I think that's different than some of the other airlines, United in particular (if I'm remembering correctly what a friend who flies for them told me).

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It's pretty standard for airline pilots to have monthly guaranteed minimums. Here's a website where you can see genersl guidelines for each airline.

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/

Thanks for correcting me. For some reason I thought my friend at United doesn't get paid unless she flies.

proudaggie02 said:

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I heard from a friend that a mutual friend (SWA pilot) is being furloughed for 5 years at 100k/year plus benefits. He was under the impression that our mutual friends salary is 150-170k.

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Captains make double that.

Every passenger airline and I do mean every, including SWA, will be forced to furlough very soon if this doesn't turn around quickly. Just off the top of my head we are looking at 12,000 plus pilots laid off or probably close to 20% of the labor group. The number could rise. 4 airlines have already shut their door and closed shop - ExpressJet, Trans States, Compass and one other.

SWA pilots got the deal of a lifetime and much better than any other airline. If you were a SWA pilot you could accept either an early retirement package or take up to a 5 year ETO - emergency time off. Both paid very handsomely. IMO it was to try and help preventing furloughs as SWA has never furloughed in their 49 year history. Big selling point. Your friend is probably getting Close to 100k if they are a first officer. but I doubt they'll be out 5 years. Just my opinion.

The problem with this whole mess is training costs. Take United for example. You might be a Captain on the 777. But now you can't hold it due to the downsizing of the fleet. So you get displaced to another aircraft. That pilot currently on that plane now can't hold his seat due to seniority. They are displaced. The cycle repeats. By potentially furloughing 3500 pilots you might trigger 1000s of training events. Each training event could cost upwards of 60-70k. Do the math.

The problem pilots will face is there will be very few flying jobs to be had and those will pay a small fraction of what they made. Regardless of their time / experience most, if they start over at a new airline or company, will start as the most junior pilot. It's how it works. But most wont find flying jobs and our skill set as pilots doesn't translate well to other industries. I've known a lot of guys who all they could find were jobs at Home Depot or driving a semi or, ironically, a hotel van driver picking up pilots from the airport.

I love my job and am glad my wife and I save and live below our means but bottom line for many pilots, myself included, is we may be out of work flying for years. Some are saying 4-5 years. At a major airline now and finally making decent money but to find a job that could even replace 1/2 or 1/3rd my income will be very difficult If not impossible.. And yes, I've looked.

TLDR: 2020 suck

I imagine everyone is jealous of the FedEx and UPS pilots.

Guppy, I would think any new bailout would come with the requirement that pilots had other employees not be furloughed or released before a date sometime ~6 months into the future? Similar to the last one it would allow airlines and other companies to maintain their workforce and equipment in hopes that we can return to whatever normal looks like after this is over.

Aston04 said:

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I imagine everyone is jealous of the FedEx and UPS pilots.

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I sat next to a UPS 747-8 pilot on a flight last year (he was repositioning to start a round-the-world cargo run the next day). Very interesting conversation. Said that he flew passengers very early in his career and hated it, and that there was no way he could go back to that and make anywhere close to what he was pulling from UPS. Favorite quote: "the boxes don't ***** about the rough ride"

Virgin Atlantic has declared bankruptcy.

YouBet said:

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Virgin Atlantic has declared bankruptcy.

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Be interesting. Delta owns 49%.

The airlines are in trouble. Don't see business travel returning to normal regardless of vaccine.

Bobaloo said:

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The airlines are in trouble. Don't see business travel returning to normal regardless of vaccine.

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Yep. And Commercial office real estate is about to take a beating too. This whole thing has been proving how WFH is just fine for most office jobs. It will take time to unwind due to leases, but that is about to be a major savings target.

Bingo Bango Bongo said:

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Bobaloo said:

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The airlines are in trouble. Don't see business travel returning to normal regardless of vaccine.

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Yep. And Commercial office real estate is about to take a beating too. This whole thing has been proving how WFH is just fine for most office jobs. It will take time to unwind due to leases, but that is about to be a major savings target.

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Lots of vacant office bldgs in our future

Guppy said:

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4 airlines have already shut their door and closed shop - ExpressJet, Trans States, Compass and one other.

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It sucks for all those who worked there, but as a customer I sure as hell wont miss the ERJ145s. I'm a short guy and even I felt a bit claustrophobic in those. The fact United would hire those for 2.5 hour flights sometimes was frustrating. However, I get why as they wanted multiple flights per day to some locations and there wasnt enough demand to have those all be 737s or A319s.

Bobaloo said:

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The airlines are in trouble. Don't see business travel returning to normal regardless of vaccine.

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Statements I've seen from airlines has most of them saying 2022-2023 before back to 2019 levels. We shall see.

cajunaggie08 said:

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Guppy said:

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4 airlines have already shut their door and closed shop - ExpressJet, Trans States, Compass and one other.

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It sucks for all those who worked there, but as a customer I sure as hell wont miss the ERJ145s. I'm a short guy and even I felt a bit claustrophobic in those. The fact United would hire those for 2.5 hour flights sometimes was frustrating. However, I get why as they wanted multiple flights per day to some locations and there wasnt enough demand to have those all be 737s or A319s.

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I doubt the RJs are going anywhere. Outside of Southwest, if you're flying commercial to/from a city with less than 200,000 people, you're probably going to be on an RJ.

TxAg20 said:

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cajunaggie08 said:

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Guppy said:

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4 airlines have already shut their door and closed shop - ExpressJet, Trans States, Compass and one other.

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It sucks for all those who worked there, but as a customer I sure as hell wont miss the ERJ145s. I'm a short guy and even I felt a bit claustrophobic in those. The fact United would hire those for 2.5 hour flights sometimes was frustrating. However, I get why as they wanted multiple flights per day to some locations and there wasnt enough demand to have those all be 737s or A319s.

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I doubt the RJs are going anywhere. Outside of Southwest, if you're flying commercial to/from a city with less than 200,000 people, you're probably going to be on an RJ.

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I dont expect United to shift away from regional jets, but perhaps United will move to a airline using more E175s rather than the ERJs.

cajunaggie08 said:

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TxAg20 said:

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cajunaggie08 said:

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Guppy said:

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4 airlines have already shut their door and closed shop - ExpressJet, Trans States, Compass and one other.

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It sucks for all those who worked there, but as a customer I sure as hell wont miss the ERJ145s. I'm a short guy and even I felt a bit claustrophobic in those. The fact United would hire those for 2.5 hour flights sometimes was frustrating. However, I get why as they wanted multiple flights per day to some locations and there wasnt enough demand to have those all be 737s or A319s.

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I doubt the RJs are going anywhere. Outside of Southwest, if you're flying commercial to/from a city with less than 200,000 people, you're probably going to be on an RJ.

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I dont expect United to shift away from regional jets, but perhaps United will move to a airline using more E175s rather than the ERJs.

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Yes, this is what will likely happen. The airlines were already moving to the E-series and Airbus A220s to get rid of the smaller regional jets. People don't really like those smaller RJs (not that airlines care) but surprisingly they aren't fuel efficient at all.

The only reason regional jets are going away is because airlines are getting smaller. All of the big 3 have contractual ratios between regional jets and "mainline" jets. Usually anything below ~76 seats is regional and anything above is operated by the big airline and their union pilots.

One of the big reasons United had so many RJs is that it allowed them to add more mainline aircraft. If they are going to shrink their mainline fleet, they don't need their RJs either.

PearlJammin said:

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proudaggie02 said:

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I heard from a friend that a mutual friend (SWA pilot) is being furloughed for 5 years at 100k/year plus benefits. He was under the impression that our mutual friends salary is 150-170k.

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Captains make double that.

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Captains of airlines make $300,000/year? I wouldn't have guessed that in a million years. No wonder airlines repeatedly need governmental assistance.

South Platte said:

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PearlJammin said:

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proudaggie02 said:

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I heard from a friend that a mutual friend (SWA pilot) is being furloughed for 5 years at 100k/year plus benefits. He was under the impression that our mutual friends salary is 150-170k.

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Captains make double that.

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Captains of airlines make $300,000/year? I wouldn't have guessed that in a million years. No wonder airlines repeatedly need governmental assistance.

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And if they fly long-haul international routes, they may work six days a month on average.

Old RV Ag said:

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South Platte said:

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PearlJammin said:

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proudaggie02 said:

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I heard from a friend that a mutual friend (SWA pilot) is being furloughed for 5 years at 100k/year plus benefits. He was under the impression that our mutual friends salary is 150-170k.

---

Captains make double that.

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Captains of airlines make $300,000/year? I wouldn't have guessed that in a million years. No wonder airlines repeatedly need governmental assistance.

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And if they fly long-haul international routes, they may work six days a month on average.

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I have a friend that is a pilot for United. I don't know if he is a captain or 1st officer, but he has been with United for about 10 years. A couple of years ago he took an option to go on-call. I don't know all the specifics, but he doesn't fly regularly . . . he has flown twice since March. He gets paid less than the pilots that fly frequently, but only about 20% less. He occasionally has to recertify through their simulation program.

I guess he gets paid way more than I thought he did. Good for him! I should have been a pilot.

South Platte said:

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Old RV Ag said:

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South Platte said:

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PearlJammin said:

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proudaggie02 said:

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I heard from a friend that a mutual friend (SWA pilot) is being furloughed for 5 years at 100k/year plus benefits. He was under the impression that our mutual friends salary is 150-170k.

---

Captains make double that.

---

Captains of airlines make $300,000/year? I wouldn't have guessed that in a million years. No wonder airlines repeatedly need governmental assistance.

---

And if they fly long-haul international routes, they may work six days a month on average.

---

I have a friend that is a pilot for United. I don't know if he is a captain or 1st officer, but he has been with United for about 10 years. A couple of years ago he took an option to go on-call. I don't know all the specifics, but he doesn't fly regularly . . . he has flown twice since March. He gets paid less than the pilots that fly frequently, but only about 20% less. He occasionally has to recertify through their simulation program.

I guess he gets paid way more than I thought he did. Good for him! I should have been a pilot.

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A life long friend of mine was a Navy F-4 aviator then worked for American. He rose to be a very senior pilot flying international. Let's just say he did a lot of skiing and other hobbies most of the time and worked about a week a month. He did very well financially (plus coming from some family money). Now, he collects Navy retirement, American retirement, and SS on top of all that. Good for him. He's a great person and been a great father as well.

My point is only that the airline pilot pay system is bizarre - you've got young regional jet guys overworked making $40k and senior guys working a week a month drawing $300k.

South Platte said:

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PearlJammin said:

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proudaggie02 said:

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I heard from a friend that a mutual friend (SWA pilot) is being furloughed for 5 years at 100k/year plus benefits. He was under the impression that our mutual friends salary is 150-170k.

---

Captains make double that.

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Captains of airlines make $300,000/year? I wouldn't have guessed that in a million years. No wonder airlines repeatedly need governmental assistance.

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That's accurate for wide body captains. Narrow body captains can make that much too but they will have to fly more than contract minimums.

The pay and associated boom and bust cycles all come back to the government. All airline pilots are unionized and governed by federal law. There isn't a lot of competition among the major airline pilot ranks excepts to play each union off the other for better pay and benefits. The union isn't to blame though, it's the government for setting up the game this way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Labor_Act

Regional operating airlines have been a major disruption to pilot competition though. The major US airlines bid the regional operators against each other and the lowest bidder gets the aircraft to operate. If their costs get out of line, they rebid and move the aircraft. They are not locked in like they are with their in-house fleets.

Amazon is disrupting things at the moment too. Rather than having an in-house flying staff, they purchase the aircraft and bid the flying out to ~3-4 cargo operators. If any of the costs get out of line, they move the aircraft to a different operator. It will be interesting to see if they can keep that up or if they are forced by the government to get their own certificate (and their own pilot union).

Old RV Ag said:

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A life long friend of mine was a Navy F-4 aviator then worked for American. He rose to be a very senior pilot flying international. Let's just say he did a lot of skiing and other hobbies most of the time and worked about a week a month. He did very well financially (plus coming from some family money). Now, he collects Navy retirement, American retirement, and SS on top of all that. Good for him. He's a great person and been a great father as well.

My point is only that the airline pilot pay system is bizarre - you've got young regional jet guys overworked making $40k and senior guys working a week a month drawing $300k.

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It's all about timing. For every story like your Navy friend, there is the story of a pilot that joined at the wrong time and went through 3-4 layoffs over 25 years because they were at the wrong spot in the seniority list when bankruptcies happened. Neither one is more experienced than the other, they were just different ages or left the military at slightly different times in the industry cycle.

I 100% agree with you though. The pay dichotomy between different pilots is truly mind boggling.

Old RV Ag said:

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South Platte said:

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Old RV Ag said:

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South Platte said:

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PearlJammin said:

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proudaggie02 said:

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I heard from a friend that a mutual friend (SWA pilot) is being furloughed for 5 years at 100k/year plus benefits. He was under the impression that our mutual friends salary is 150-170k.

---

Captains make double that.

---

Captains of airlines make $300,000/year? I wouldn't have guessed that in a million years. No wonder airlines repeatedly need governmental assistance.

---

And if they fly long-haul international routes, they may work six days a month on average.

---

I have a friend that is a pilot for United. I don't know if he is a captain or 1st officer, but he has been with United for about 10 years. A couple of years ago he took an option to go on-call. I don't know all the specifics, but he doesn't fly regularly . . . he has flown twice since March. He gets paid less than the pilots that fly frequently, but only about 20% less. He occasionally has to recertify through their simulation program.

I guess he gets paid way more than I thought he did. Good for him! I should have been a pilot.

---

A life long friend of mine was a Navy F-4 aviator then worked for American. He rose to be a very senior pilot flying international. Let's just say he did a lot of skiing and other hobbies most of the time and worked about a week a month. He did very well financially (plus coming from some family money). Now, he collects Navy retirement, American retirement, and SS on top of all that. Good for him. He's a great person and been a great father as well.

My point is only that the airline pilot pay system is bizarre - you've got young regional jet guys overworked making $40k and senior guys working a week a month drawing $300k.

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Likewise. My friend is a good guy and spends almost all of his time with his family.

AeroAg2003 said:

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Old RV Ag said:

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A life long friend of mine was a Navy F-4 aviator then worked for American. He rose to be a very senior pilot flying international. Let's just say he did a lot of skiing and other hobbies most of the time and worked about a week a month. He did very well financially (plus coming from some family money). Now, he collects Navy retirement, American retirement, and SS on top of all that. Good for him. He's a great person and been a great father as well.

My point is only that the airline pilot pay system is bizarre - you've got young regional jet guys overworked making $40k and senior guys working a week a month drawing $300k.

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It's all about timing. For every story like your Navy friend, there is the story of a pilot that joined at the wrong time and went through 3-4 layoffs over 25 years because they were at the wrong spot in the seniority list when bankruptcies happened. Neither one is more experienced than the other, they were just different ages or left the military at slightly different times in the industry cycle.

I 100% agree with you though. The pay dichotomy between different pilots is truly mind boggling.

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Very true. That friend is not the case of everyone. Know some other former military pilots who then went to airlines and fall into the other categories you discuss. I remember discussing with one the obstacles of mergers - at the time it was the Delta/Northwest. He said the number one biggest issue would be integrating the pilots and how pilot seniority would be determined. It really could kill some careers - even to the point a new captain might be pushed to downgrade to first officer again. I've been 100% self-employed (since leaving the Army) but I can understand how frustrating it would be playing by the rules and system (even if convoluted) for years and then when it's your time to get ahead the system is changed.

There is a long grind, a farm school system, and then hopefully you break into the big leagues.

There is a huge upfront cost and years of getting certifications just to be eligible. Private pilots license - easy. Commercially rated? At least 50-60k more out of pocket. Average time is 1-3 years depending on full time versus part time. While you're then eligible to apply for a flight school, you're probably at the bottom of the list as there are other pilots who have more flight hours/experience on bigger planes. It can be an uncertain, nonspecific amount of years waiting/training to just get with a carrier.

The long lead times of training are part of the boom/bust cycle. You just can't whip up more pilots.

I don't mind pilots getting paid as much as they do. Operations always gets paid well, especially when it requires perfect execution. You don't want the guy in charge of landing 300 people safely 100% of the time to be overworked and grumbling about his pay.

A coworker niece was 1st officer on RJ 135/145 with I believe ExpressJets when they had some of the Continental/United regional stuff and starting out their salary was crazy low IMO, but I know that is at the bottom, entry level position.