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5,815 Views | 41 Replies | Last: 11 yr ago by I bleed maroon
IDaggie06
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IDaggie06
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Sorry, pressed enter too soon.

UWTI is a 3x velocity ETF based off the WTI (west texas intermediate)

Thoughts on investing in this stock for a couple years or until oil hits $60?

If oil goes to $60, wouldn't you almost triple your money? I realize you could lose lot in the interim.
Are there outside factors other than the price of oil that can majorly affect these 3X ETF stocks?
Ragoo
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Compare the chart for crude against this etn.
IDaggie06
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Here is the 3 month chart comparison.




Looks like $60/oil would just over double your money right now.
I probably wouldn't do this unless oil hits $40. I realize it could go down to $25 or whatever, but confident it will eventually come back to at least $60 and this is money I don't need now.

Stupid risky?
Whitetail
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Yes
GarryowenAg
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^
I agree. This seems pretty risky. This recession will put some companies under. I'm going to wait until I start seeing some leveling out
IDaggie06
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quote:
^
I agree. This seems pretty risky. This recession will put some companies under. I'm going to wait until I start seeing some leveling out


I'm confused on how companies going under would affect this. Are you talking about energy/drilling companies or broadly saying this recession will cause a decrease in demand for crude?

It is my understanding this stock is not affected by any companies and is 100% based off the price of WTI. Am i wrong?
GarryowenAg
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Did more reading on it. My bad. I was speculating.


This will definitely be a long time investment though. BUT I am going to keep this on my list of possible investments
Dr. Faustus
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Go read up on compounding and decay with regards to ETFs. Not a good long term investment strategy at all. Go read the thread about DGAZ/UGAZ for reference. Unless I'm terribly mistaken, the exact same issues arise here, except you're indexed to oil as opposed to natty gas.
moses1084ever
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ID Aggie,

Due to the way that leveraged ETF's are structured, their returns naturally decay over time. ETF's are great for short term trades as you experience very little decay. However, if you are looking to hold for a few months / years, the effect would be come quite noticeable.

Ragoo
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Compare longer than a 3 month period please.
JeffHamilton82
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Please do not ever think of buying any 3x ETF as a long term trade.!!!
IDaggie06
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I will take your guys word for it, but I still don't really understand it. Guess I need to do some reading.
Dr. Faustus
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quote:
I will take your guys word for it, but I still don't really understand it. Guess I need to do some reading.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=leveraged%20etf%20decay

Pick any of those top several articles. Seeking Alpha, NASDAQ, etc. Ignore the one where the blogger is trying to prove the absence of decay in leveraged ETFs through Monte Carlo simulation. He's an idiot.
Stan Crowch
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Hope you bought it.
GarlandAg2012
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There are two major reasons this is a bad long term instrument. First of all, the ETF itself is constantly rolling over futures contracts, so you are having to pay the fees for the management and those transactions, contributing to the price decay of the ETF. Secondly, due to the leveraged nature of the fund, there is a mathematical decay caused by the compounding effects of the ETF being 3x leveraged.
blynch2005
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Along the OP's line of thinking, I've been watching USO. The same premise, if WTI goes to a certain point, I think there is a good chance it goes up, even if it takes 12-24 months.
cincoaggie86
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I don't understand. I bought some UWTI (only 75 shares) a few weeks ago. I look at my etrade account and I still have 75 shares at $3.44, No fees are coming out or anything (unless they're secretly taking my money). Are they taking my money??

So if this goes up to $50 or something in two years and I sell my shares, I won't actually make any money??
Dr. Faustus
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Did y'all even read our responses?

Look at GarlandAg's post a few posts above this. Leveraged ETFs are terrible long term investment vehicles.
IDaggie06
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quote:
Did y'all even read our responses?

Look at GarlandAg's post a few posts above this. Leveraged ETFs are terrible long term investment vehicles.



I am the op and yes I read the posts which is why I never bought.

I would think cincoaggie's issue is unrelated. He seems to be saying he bought the stock at $3.44 and Etrade still shows the price at $3.44 in his portfolio. UWTI is currently at $2.76 so why wouldn't Etrade show his value based upon the $2.76?
Dr. Faustus
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I was referring more to blynch. As for cinco, I don't use ETrade, so I'm not familiar with the appearance of their platform. It could be that he's looking at his cost basis, in which case it would show his purchase price per share. I HIGHLY doubt ETrade is taking money from him. I really was actually hoping his post was more of a troll than anything.
cincoaggie86
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Nope, not a troll, just a terrible investor it seems.

The $3.44 is my cost basis, so yes if I sold today I would take a loss. As for the decay and all that stuff, how does that really affect me? I have 75 shares at $3.44. If I hold on for a year or so until it goes up to $40, how will I not make profit if I sell?
Dr. Faustus
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quote:
Nope, not a troll, just a terrible investor it seems.

The $3.44 is my cost basis, so yes if I sold today I would take a loss. As for the decay and all that stuff, how does that really affect me? I have 75 shares at $3.44. If I hold on for a year or so until it goes up to $40, how will I not make profit?


Apologies for assuming it was a troll. I'm a little cynical at times. Too much time on the GB as it were.

I'll try to answer this as best I can. The decay affects you because it takes a toll on the ETF's trade price. A leveraged ETF is a publicly available fund that is indexed to something, in your case oil futures. The ETF's money managers buy and sell oil futures contracts with money invested in the ETF as the price of oil goes up and down in order to get the ETF to perform at some multiple of the underlying commodity (your multiple is 3X). In a perfect world, if oil went up 5%, UWTI would go up 15%, and vice versa. That's the compounding part. The decay part comes into play because there is a transaction cost and fees associated every one of those oil futures contracts that the ETF's money managers buy and sell, which takes a bite out of the profits. So as a result of this compounding and decay, the value of all leveraged ETFs naturally trend towards zero.

Here's an example of negative compounding with leveraged ETFs:

Day 1: You buy UWTI at $10 when oil is at $50. Oil then drops to $45 (10% loss). UWTI goes to $7 in a perfect world (30% loss, since it's 3X leveraged).
Day 2: Oil goes back up to $50 (11.1% gain). UWTI goes up to $9.33 in a perfect world (33.3% gain, again since it's 3X leveraged).

In this example, you'll see how the leveraged ETF loses money, even though the underlying commodity price ultimately breaks even. This is why they're extremely bad long-term investment vehicles.

I hope some of this makes sense to you. I'm sure there are Ags on here that can explain it much more concisely and simpler than I can.
GarlandAg2012
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Great response. There are other factors as well that make it even worse than the example Georgia posted but you can see that mathematically it is not a long term instrument.

Stan Crowch
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Position should look much better in the morning.
cincoaggie86
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So...if the stock price goes up from $3.44 to $40 over a span of 2 years...I won't actually make any money?
Dr. Faustus
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You would. But what gives you any indication that the ETF will increase ten-fold? Theoretically speaking, oil would have to go to something like $160/bbl for you to see $40 in UWTI. Please go do some reading on leveraged ETFs.
m48xhp
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I believe cinco is looking at the time when UWTI was about $40/share when oil was around $100/bbl. In short, don't expect it to get back to $40 just cause you think oil may bounce back up to $100/bbl. The math posted above is a fantastic simple example of why.

Look at it this way: Oil is at $47.14 right now. Let's say tomorrow, it magically jumps 100%, to $94.28/bbl... UWTI would in theory go up 300%. WOOHOO!, right? Well, UWTI is at $3.00 right now, so 300% of that brings it up to only $12.00. wooooHUH??? which is 4x today's money.

So, can you make money? yes. I plan on buying some shares of UWTI as well. But don't expect a 10-15x payoff. Hope to double your money and be damn happy knowing that is possible. Take a look at DWTI, which is a 3x inverse of UWTI. It is worth about 7x what is was when oil peaked last summer (shoulda seen it coming and put money there, right?). But UWTI is about 14x down from the same time.

You would have been better off short-selling UWTI. Perhaps, shorting DWTI could provide a similar result should oil prices go back up. (that is all if short-selling a leveraged ETF is allowed; I am not a professional)
Dr. Faustus
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That's definitely some good elaboration on what I posted. And for clarification, I'm not trying to be a dick, so I apologize if I've come off that way. I just don't want to see cinco, or anybody for that matter, burn money on an investment the mechanics of which they don't completely understand. Just trying to provide some insight to the best of my ability. It's really easy to get burnt bad on leveraged ETFs.
m48xhp
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Also, to call back to IDAggie's original example. Buy @ $40/bbl...let slide to $25/bbl...hold to $60/bbl. I know those are numbers just thrown out there, but if they were real you'd likely NOT make any money selling at $60. You would not rebound those $15 from 40-25 at the same rate.
cincoaggie86
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Ah ha. OK now it makes sense. Thanks!
Dr. Faustus
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Likely not. You can look at the math in my earlier example and see why.
IDaggie06
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I finally decided to play this bet. Bought 1k shares at $2.50. Not huge money but hopefully make a little and don't get my butt handed to me.
Dr. Faustus
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I wouldn't recommend holding more than a couple of weeks at the very most. I really hope you didn't decide to do it as a long term investment. A good portion of investors in leveraged ETFs are in and out in the same day because they want to avoid the decay and gapping.

I view playing leveraged ETFs the same way I view gambling. Only put money into it that you're comfortable losing. I keep a portion of my portfolio as "play" money for ETFs, higher risk investments, crazy ideas of mine, and the like. That's how I view these funds. I wouldn't do it with retirement money.
IDaggie06
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Thanks. After starting this thread this is now definitely a short term investment with money I can easily afford to lose. Obviously I don't want to though!
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