United Flight -interesting situation

3,532 Views | 32 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by lazuras_dc
lazuras_dc
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So had something interesting happen just now I've never seen but the pilot explained that the original aircraft we were supposed to be on was a Y class but now we're in a Z class (could be vice versa or diff letters altogether I don't know exactly ). Anyway flight aware says we're on a Boeing 737-800 (twin-jet) (B738). The one we're on has less power than the original aircraft we were supposed to have.

They offered vouchers for multiple people to get off and made a big hoopla about not switching seats and saying bc of weight and balance we need to stay in our booked seats. There are multiple open seats on the plane now.

Anyway my question is how could this aircraft not have enough power to power a full cabin of passengers ? Maybe they unexpectedly had much more cargo than anticipated ? Is it tied to pilot rating somehow? I'm confused.
Milwaukees Best Light
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Good luck. It was nice knowing you.
txags92
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Probably put some high value cargo in the hold and had to jettison passengers to make it work.
lazuras_dc
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txags92 said:

Probably put some high value cargo in the hold and had to jettison passengers to make it work.


That was my thought. Or I thought maybe tankering fuel but we actually got held up outside of Houston due to weather/traffic and had to redirect to Austin to refuel

We did make it though. Now sitting in Houston traffic so that might be worse.
Random Ag
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This happens fairly regularly on smaller aircraft (2 x 1 or 2 x 2 seating arrangements).
HollywoodBQ
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I've seen them bump people on hot summer days in Denver due to aircraft performance under those conditions.

As far as switching aircraft, my best story was on Cathay Pacific in Hong Kong when they changed 777 aircraft and the seat on my boarding pass didn't exist. That was kind of funny.
akaggie05
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Departure airport? As mentioned above, if the takeoff is from a high elevation airfield then capacity restrictions can quickly come into play. Often worse in the summer (hot/high especially bad combo).
justnobody79
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maybe they didn't have enough fuel at the airport to power a full flight so needed to shave off some pounds to be safe
AggieOO
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too many fatties on your flight.
lazuras_dc
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SNA -> IAH

In my experience, the most fatties you'll ever seen on one flight is generally LAS-IAH

The low fuel thing makes sense since they had us re-route to AUS to get more fuel after they found out we couldn't land at IAH for 30+min. due to traffic.
HollywoodBQ
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One oddity about flying out of SNA - Orange County John Wayne is the climb after take off.

I haven't flown out of there in a few years but, from memory, they take off at a really steep climb and then cut back on the engines until they're out over the ocean. Something to do with local noise restrictions.

I'm sure this YouTube is a better explanation than mine.
HtownAg19
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lazuras_dc said:

SNA -> IAH

In my experience, the most fatties you'll ever seen on one flight is generally LAS-IAH

The low fuel thing makes sense since they had us re-route to AUS to get more fuel after they found out we couldn't land at IAH for 30+min. due to traffic.


Flights out of SNA are difficult due to the very short runway resulting in a very limited takeoff weight. If there's any inclement weather at the destination flights will tend to divert quickly due not having enough extra room on max takeoff weight to take a lot of additional fuel (unless it's an empty flight). Longer flights out of SNA are frequently weight restricted.
HollywoodBQ
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lazuras_dc said:

In my experience, the most fatties you'll ever seen on one flight is generally LAS-IAH
LAS-DAL can give them a run for their money.

We were somewhere over Northeast Arizona when the 300 lb sister who had stopped taking her meds, and was drinking and smoking while in Vegas started having some sort of panic attack. It was only her second time on an airplane after all so she was stressed.

When you need medical care on a plane, you get whoever is on board.
Luckily, the Urology nurse and the Knee Surgeon brought things under control.

Somewhere about Wichita Falls, the drama queen finally passed out (thanks to whatever the Doctor slipped her).
I was glad to remain seated as medical personnel escorted her off the plane at Love Field.
rwtxag83
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HollywoodBQ said:

One oddity about flying out of SNA - Orange County John Wayne is the climb after take off.

I haven't flown out of there in a few years but, from memory, they take off at a really steep climb and then cut back on the engines until they're out over the ocean. Something to do with local noise restrictions.

I'm sure this YouTube is a better explanation than mine.

Balboa Island at the very end of the video. One of my favorite places.
Greater love hath no man than this....
Jetpilot86
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HtownAg19 said:

lazuras_dc said:

SNA -> IAH

In my experience, the most fatties you'll ever seen on one flight is generally LAS-IAH

The low fuel thing makes sense since they had us re-route to AUS to get more fuel after they found out we couldn't land at IAH for 30+min. due to traffic.


Flights out of SNA are difficult due to the very short runway resulting in a very limited takeoff weight. If there's any inclement weather at the destination flights will tend to divert quickly due not having enough extra room on max takeoff weight to take a lot of additional fuel (unless it's an empty flight). Longer flights out of SNA are frequently weight restricted.


This. The more performance metrics required to takeoff, usually over noise anytime in the year, and a combination of heat and or altitude, the less weight a plane can carry off the runway. One you run out of fuel to bump, off come the bodies.
inconvenient truth
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HollywoodBQ said:

lazuras_dc said:

In my experience, the most fatties you'll ever seen on one flight is generally LAS-IAH
LAS-DAL can give them a run for their money.

We were somewhere over Northeast Arizona when the 300 lb sister who had stopped taking her meds, and was drinking and smoking while in Vegas started having some sort of panic attack. It was only her second time on an airplane after all so she was stressed.

When you need medical care on a plane, you get whoever is on board.
Luckily, the Urology nurse and the Knee Surgeon brought things under control.

Somewhere about Wichita Falls, the drama queen finally passed out (thanks to whatever the Doctor slipped her).
I was glad to remain seated as medical personnel escorted her off the plane at Love Field.


Bet you think twice next time before hopping on a spirt flight
Bluecat_Aggie94
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I don't understand the weight and balance thing. They don't weight you and you don't put your weight on the reservation. Has never made sense to me.

Not a conspiracy theorist, I just don't get it.
HollywoodBQ
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inconvenient truth said:

Bet you think twice next time before hopping on a spirt flight
I've never flown Spirit but back during the Scamdemic, in May 2020, I flew out of Miami and I saw the folks lining up for Spirit. So I was not surprised when a few weeks later I saw one of the Spirit viral fight videos running around the Internet.
HollywoodBQ
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Bluecat_Aggie94 said:

I don't understand the weight and balance thing. They don't weight you and you don't put your weight on the reservation. Has never made sense to me.

Not a conspiracy theorist, I just don't get it.
I'm sure jetpilot86 can provide a better description but my explanation is that Airline math is kind of like Realtor math where everything is $/sq. ft.

They use average weight for passengers, luggage, they know how much fuel they've brought on board and presumably how much cargo.

I read a few years ago that they use something like 180 lbs per passenger.
I haven't been 180 lbs since my fish year and given how overweight people are now, they should probably bump that average up at least in the USA. It's fine for Asia.

The only airline where I've ever had my carry-on weighed was Qantas from LAX-SYD and that was almost 15 years ago and it was only that one time. Once I had status, and didn't look like a tourist, they never bothered me again. I have seen the articles on-line about Air New Zealand trialing a system of weighing passengers.

I have been on flights where they have re-distributed passenger throughout the plane to balance the load for takeoff. But with most flights being completely full these days, it doesn't happen too often except for little puddle jumper hops from like Tallahassee to Charlotte.
txags92
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HollywoodBQ said:

Bluecat_Aggie94 said:

I don't understand the weight and balance thing. They don't weight you and you don't put your weight on the reservation. Has never made sense to me.

Not a conspiracy theorist, I just don't get it.
I'm sure jetpilot86 can provide a better description but my explanation is that Airline math is kind of like Realtor math where everything is $/sq. ft.

They use average weight for passengers, luggage, they know how much fuel they've brought on board and presumably how much cargo.

I read a few years ago that they use something like 180 lbs per passenger.
I haven't been 180 lbs since my fish year and given how overweight people are now, they should probably bump that average up at least in the USA. It's fine for Asia.

The only airline where I've ever had my carry-on weighed was Qantas from LAX-SYD and that was almost 15 years ago and it was only that one time. Once I had status, and didn't look like a tourist, they never bothered me again. I have seen the articles on-line about Air New Zealand trialing a system of weighing passengers.

I have been on flights where they have re-distributed passenger throughout the plane to balance the load for takeoff. But with most flights being completely full these days, it doesn't happen too often except for little puddle jumper hops from like Tallahassee to Charlotte.
Cayman Air weighs everything but the passengers going to and from the Sister Islands. Depending on the gate agent that day, you may or may not have to pay $0.50 per pound for anything over their limit.
Bluecat_Aggie94
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I always feel like.. if it's that close... maybe I don't want to be not he plane!!

All joking aside, I'm happy to let the experts do their thing. I really do trust they are looking for everyone's best interest. Thanks for the explanation, that helps a bit.
HtownAg19
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Bluecat_Aggie94 said:

I don't understand the weight and balance thing. They don't weight you and you don't put your weight on the reservation. Has never made sense to me.

Not a conspiracy theorist, I just don't get it.


Can't speak for the other airlines, but the one I work for has dedicated load agents who handle the weight and balance aspect of the flight. The passengers and bags all use average weights. If anything, when it's all said in done these numbers are likely more conservative and heavier than actuality. This is because the weights per passenger include a carryon bag. Then when it gets gate checked because the gate agent scares everyone into thinking there's not enough space in the cabin, the bags go down below and are actually double counted. When the load planner gets the fuel load from the dispatcher they plug their estimated pax/bag counts into their software and make sure everything will be within balance limits. If any balance or weight limits are busted they will have to move people around or cut payload to make it work. Once all the people are the on and ramp sends the final bag count to the load agent, they plug the final numbers in and if everything looks good they send the final numbers off to the flight crew to plug into their computer..

Hope that helps
Jetpilot86
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Bluecat_Aggie94 said:

I don't understand the weight and balance thing. They don't weight you and you don't put your weight on the reservation. Has never made sense to me.

Not a conspiracy theorist, I just don't get it.


Standard weight for a Passenger was/is 180#, kids 1/2 that. Average bag weight is about 23# IIRC. There was an effort to bump those up, but the airlines had a fit. Most airlines weigh your bag as you check it now so that is probably more accurate than the body weight. But it's an average weight for people, for sure.
lazuras_dc
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180# is certainly the average woman I see coming out of IAH at least
HollywoodBQ
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Add another 75 - 100 lbs for Spirit
pocketrockets06
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My wife and I were just retelling the story tonight of our flight in a 12 seat prop plane where to balance weight they had her sit in the copilot seat. She thought they were joking but they weren't. This was from San Juan to St Croix.
rilloaggie
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One time I got delayed in Denver and stuck in Spokane during some massive high school volleyball tournament. I was stuck waiting for a standby seat to get back to Seattle. I'd say at least 3/4 of the people on the flight were 15-16yo volleyball girls. The gate agents started in on needing folks to check bags and mentioned something about the plane being overweight. I couldn't help but chuckle because a flight full of these girls probably weighed half of what a typical load of passengers out of Houston would!
Jetpilot86
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pocketrockets06 said:

My wife and I were just retelling the story tonight of our flight in a 12 seat prop plane where to balance weight they had her sit in the copilot seat. She thought they were joking but they weren't. This was from San Juan to St Croix.


The smaller the plane, the more critical it is. I have some interesting setups for my 4 seater.
bthotugigem05
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That's almost 100% because of the departure from SNA.

Another reason I've seen something like that happen was flying to Iceland from MSP back in 2021. The winds changed along the route and they needed to take more fuel to meet forecasted minimums, which put them overweight. They needed 30 passengers to volunteer to take a flight the next day and we all got a free night at a hotel and $4500 apiece
TXCityAggie
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I (along with about 30 other people) was bumped off of an Air Canada flight from Venice to Toronto. It had something to do with the length of the runway and extreme heat. They put us all on a flight the next day and then did the exact same thing the following day as well. They also left the checked baggage of everyone that did make the flight in Venice and sent it on a later flight. Luckily, I had booked with the flight through United, so they were able to get me on a Lufthansa/United flight through Frankfurt.
Jetpilot86
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This time it happened TO me.

I was flying out of Bangalore the other day and we had to return to the ramp because of a maintenance issue. We were loaded within a few thousand pounds of the max we could take off with from the runway using every trick in the book.

Unless you are someplace that has an extreme "something", short runway, high altitude, high temperature, both, among others; it's likely that the plane you are in is taking off at 75-90% power to take it easier on the engine/s. The most likely time for an engine to fail is at max power, on takeoff, at the first power reduction. In the last 20 years on jets, I've made a handful of MAX BLAST takeoffs. Nearly everything is "reduced thrust" to some degree or another. As a bonus, less noise as well. The main reason SNA is a pain to operate in and out of on a good day. NIMBY.

Bangalore is high (3000') and hot, in the 90's for us that day.

So the problem gets fixed, but in the intervening 3 hours, the temperature goes up 6 degrees, enough to put us 500 lbs overweight on a 950,000 airplane. We run out of duty time for the flight and go to the hotel for rest. Come out the next day and are set to use the other runway that has 6000#'s less capacity than the one from the day before. Nearly can't get out, because we were getting stuck behind so many "hometeam" airlines that we almost had to go back for more gas for the 11 hour flight to Germany. If we'd had to, I suspect we'd have been bumping freight to make weight again.

As it was we had to use Max Thrust, max Takeoff Flaps, AND turn off the pressurization for the takeoff to get all the goodies they wanted on the jet to Germany.

So for the OP's scenario, SNA has a runway 40% shorter than "we'd" like (I can never have enough gas, unless on fire, or runway ahead of me), higher than average initial climb performance required for noise, and it was probably a warmer day there along with a longer flight to make. A higher temperature thins the air making it "feel" like higher altitude to the airplane.

You will find similar situations in PHX (raw heat & a little altitude) and DEN (heat and lot more altitude) in the Summer. Some of this is offset by adding pavement, DEN built a 16000' runway, roughly 50% longer than average so that the planes bound for the Far East, nonstop could carry the maximum load that distance, in the summer.

In your case, it was probably unexpectedly warm weather in SNA that the airline hadn't adjusted loads for, for the season yet. When Summer shows up out there, the airline likely plans to sell less tickets so your scenario happens less.

That is about as shallow in the rabbit hole I can go and give you an explanation as to why the airline wasn't pulling a fast one.
redaszag99
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****ing awesome
lazuras_dc
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Great explanation. Never knew how much went on behind the curtain. You know, those planes just fly themselves
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