Question for REC coaches and other soccer experts - what to do with weak players?

17,104 Views | 21 Replies | Last: 13 yr ago by captainsubtext
agracer
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I’m coaching my son’s u12 team. 8 v 8, we have 11 players on the roster.

Like every rec. team, we have a few players who are not the best athletes. Can’t run fast, can’t kick the ball correctly, or well, most of the time, don’t really understand the game but try hard for the most part.

Last week we played the #1 (and unbeaten) team in our league. We lost 2-1. The kids played a great game but just could not get the ball on target. In fact, we spent ~20m of the 1st 30m half in their end of the field. Our defense really controlled the game, stole the ball and distributed it to our midfield very well for most of the game.

One of the parents wanted to know why I don’t put the weak players on defense and allow the skilled players up front so we can score more? I said “because I put them where they can do the least damage”. I can promise the game would have been 7-1 (at best) if either of those two players had been playing defense for even part of the game. Even in drills in practice they don’t handle it well, don’t recover, and don’t know what to do with the ball when they do get it. Why give the other team more chances to score? I’d rather lose possession at their end of the field than give the other team a free 1 v 1 on our goalie. We were not going to win a shoot out. He pointed out “7-1 or 2-1 is still a loss…why not try to score more? Uhm….if it was 6-1 we have NO chance to win at the end, at 2-1, the game is still in doubt and one shot and it’s tied one more and we’re ahead.

My team plays 3-3-1. My strongest/faster and smartest players are on defense, the most skilled and fast play mid field and the weakest go up front. That has always been how I position players and I would recon that my teams (again, this is rec.) have won more than lost in the last 10-seasons. The parent then went on to point out that last fall (another parent coached the team as my son was playing football) they switched to putting those two kids on defense and they started scoring more goals. Let’s see, the team finished 2-6-1 last fall in the same league against basically the same teams. We are 5-2 right now (and should finish 6-2) and in the fall 2010/spring 2011 with mostly the same players the team was 14-3-1 when I was coach.

I asked him if he’d rather give our weak players 5-shots random chances on goal, or the other team five 1 v 1 against our weak player in the penalty box? He said “who’s playing goalie for us?”…..so then I realized he was just being stubborn. I understand his point, you do have to score to win, but with a rec. team that has glaring weaknesses in the line-up, I rely on the mid-field to create opportunities and score and let the defense control the middle of the field and dictate what the other team can/cannot do and put that glaring weakness where he can do no harm. That goes completely out the window if my defense cannot control the game because that weak player is getting beat all the time.

NOTE: The opposing team we lost to above 2-1 is averaging about 7+ goals a game. My team is averaging 4 per game.

Final NOTE: If that weak player does manage to score a goal, it's going to make his day. No one remembers playing great defense, you remember that time you scored that awesome goal. If I can help this kid find that kind of success, then I feel I've done something right.
byfLuger41
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Bench'em then super sub!
Aston94
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First off, I would tell that parent to sit down and keep his mouth shut, then I would remind him that this is 10-11 year old recreational soccer.

I never coached 8 v 8, we did 7 v 7 at U10 and then 11 v. 11 for U12 up, but I generally did the same thing you did, secured my defense and then hid my weaker players up front.

I would also watch the other team, and if they didn't have a really good left wing (few teams had someone with a good left foot) I might sneak in one of my weaker players to right defender.

I was blessed with some strong defenders, so they could cover usually for one weaker defender on the right, since most teams are going to play the ball down the right side.

If you are playing a 1-3-3 then I would make sure you have a lot of speed on your two midfield wings. In a 8 v 8 situation there are not a lot of spots to hide kids, but forward and then right back might be the two best options.
chunt75
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I'd run a miniature Christmas tree formation: 3-2-1-1. At the attacking mid switch out the bad kids because it won't jeopardize your attack and will still leave you with pure midfield supply who can press up if necessary. Don't put the weak ones on defense: you'll get burned
agracer
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quote:
then I would remind him that this is 10-11 year old recreational soccer

When they were younger I always put having fun and teaching soccer at #1 priority.

Now that they are older, I work from the "put them in a position to win" philosophy. But fun is still there. If we're winning 6-0, I put the kids who have not scored up front to give them a chance to score a goal. In fact, we're 4th in the standings because of that very reason (goal differential). Other teams are beating the bad teams 10-0, which we could easily do. But I see no point in that.
fig96
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The Christmas tree idea is interesting but probably results in a 3-3-1 with kids that age anyway

I think the idea of hiding a kid at one of the fullback spots could work if you've got two other good backs. I would think that it'd be easier than anything else to teach a kid to play a bit of defense to contain the attacking player or clear the ball out of bounds.

When it all comes down to it it sounds like what you're doing is working and in general parents don't know jack


[This message has been edited by fig96 (edited 4/25/2012 10:51a).]
Aston94
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quote:
In fact, we're 4th in the standings because of that very reason (goal differential).


Shame on the league for making goal differential matter at all in a U12 rec league.
Terk
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quote:
First off, I would tell that parent to sit down and keep his mouth shut, then I would remind him that this is 10-11 year old recreational soccer.


This +100!! Are the bad players practicing hard and getting better? Do they care to be out there and try hard? That's about all you can ask for. Keep coaching them up and see what they can turn into. We're talking rec league here!
agracer
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quote:
Shame on the league for making goal differential matter at all in a U12 rec league.

You can only win by 3-0 for differential. In some games we’ve only one by 1 or two goals when we could have won by 5. Also, the 3rd place team only played one team in the top 5, we played 4 (and would have played them last weekend but got rained out). It’s really no big deal. There are not playoffs and it doesn’t really matter. I just pointed out that I don’t play to crush other teams because it’s REC soccer.
quote:
Are the bad players practicing hard and getting better? Do they care to be out there and try hard? That's about all you can ask for. Keep coaching them up and see what they can turn into.

One of them yes for the most part. He is much better than the start of the season and much more aggressive. He’s not THAT bad, he just lack confidence. The other one told me at the start of the season “I don’t like to run”….I wanted to suggest he try badminton but just laughed and said “well we're going to have to work on that”.


[This message has been edited by agracer (edited 4/25/2012 12:39p).]
EclipseAg
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Agracer, it sounds to me like you are doing everything right. I've been involved in a lot of situations like yours (although in select soccer). Our training staff would always put the weaker players up top because:

1) It was better for them to be in a situation where they might have some success vs. failing miserably trying to stop stronger, faster, more technically skilled players
2) It was better for the team since we kept the score close

The only other thing our trainers would focus on via weak players was making sure they weren't all out on the pitch at the same time. I'm sure you are well aware of that trick.

The bottom line is that parents ruin youth soccer.
chunt75
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quote:

The bottom line is that parents ruin youth soccer.


Word. I feel like I should just toss leaflets with the offside rule explained onto the sideline that is inevitably dominated by fold-out chairs and enough cameras for a Champions' League match.
captainsubtext
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You build your team from the back in soccer. We just won championship against a team that hasn't lost in a year and had outscored opponents 66-4 in spring season before the championship. That team beat us 8-1 early in the season. By end of season moved best striker to goalie and left-footed midfielder and best midfielder to left and right back. Ended up winning 2-0 on disputed goal when their goalie parried the ball from behind the goal line and then on a pk. Parents from other side raised a ruckus and were escorted out. We play 11 v. 11 at U12.

Back when it was 8v8, I would use 2-3-2 and make the defense earn their stripes. I asked the midfielders to be two-way players and therefore had to be fit. Worked really well as several kids went on to play competitively and some went on to try their hand at other sports.
aTmAg
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Do what my daughter’s coach does and tell him that you do not want to hear from parents unless it is to report an injury or absence.
An Ag in CO
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quote:
I said “because I put them where they can do the least damage”.

I can't believe a coach would say this to anyone associated with the team, much less a parent of a player on the team.

In my experience coaching 8v8 you can get better scoring opportunities from the midfielders so make sure you have one of your stronger players there. 8v8 gives you a lot of flexibility to hide team weaknesses since the stronger kids can cover better than if they were playing 11v11. Mix 'em up.

If any parent is that concerned about winning then have their kid give competitive soccer a try.
jeffk
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Keep teaching the game of soccer to all your players. Sounds like you are doing that now, but don't let parents make you discouraged.

A simple rule I tell all my players and their parents at the beginning of every year is this - I will never discuss another player's playing time or abilities with someone not related to them. They balk at first until I ask them how they'd feel if I was bad-mouthing their son to some other parent. They fall in line after that.

I coach HS teams, so winning is a more pressing priority, but teaching the game is still paramount. Games are the opportunity to demonstrate what the players are learning in our practices. Even on our HS teams, I try to play everyone on my bench if possible and if it doesn't damage our chances to win - the parents and players know that I will always do what's best for the team and the program first. Sometimes that involves not playing. With your age group, fair (not equal) playing time has to be a top priority.

IMO, whomever decided to make GD count in your youth league should be tarred and feathered.
Bockaneer
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8v8 is the suck b/c u12 players are too big relative to field size... so ready to go 11v11 next season w/ my son

he plays GK, mid and fwd - def if he has to...

we always rotate the kids thru the positions and try to have stronger players buddy a weaker - i.e.. weak def has strong mid in from t and strong def alongside
agracer
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quote:
I can't believe a coach would say this to anyone associated with the team, much less a parent of a player on the team.

Well, I don't think I said it exactly like that but I should probably be careful how I do say things. And he was not the parent of the weak player. His son is one of the better players. His point was he felt that weak player would be more comfortable on defense instead of the pressure of being on offense. I told him the opposite was true b/c giving up a goal will hurt a players mental state much more than missing a goal scoring chance will.

This parent was not being annoying at all. His son has been playing with my son, and me as coach since they were both 6yrs old (11 fall/spring seasons). He is a good guy and not being one of those helicopter parents but I can see where my OP would make it seem this way.

He was relating the experience from last fall when they switched things up and started scoring more goals (when I was not coach). What he did not realize is that in the 2nd part of the season the league reflights the teams and puts the winners in one bracket and the losers in another. They were playing in the lower bracket against much weaker competition.

He also doesn't undestand that whenever we do 1v1 or 2v1 drills in practice, those two players, 9 of 10 times, lose out on defense and simply do not recover at all.

thanks for the feedback.

quote:
With your age group, fair (not equal) playing time has to be a top priority.

IMO, whomever decided to make GD count in your youth league should be tarred and feathered.

Our league mandates 50% play time.

The standings are based on wins/ties/losses (3pts/1pt/0pt). GD is the tie breaker. Again, you can only have a maximum of 3-0 for GD so the 8-0 results count the same as a 4-1.

Why is GD such a big deal to everyone? If every goal counted I would understand, but it doesn't.

[This message has been edited by agracer (edited 4/26/2012 7:33a).]
Aston94
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GD should not ba a focus in U12 soccer, ever. If you can't break a tie by record or head to head results, then how about just saying it was a tie?

Sorry, but getting coaches to focus on GD is not a good thing in Rec soccer. If I am up 8-0 is my focus to still not let the other team score? Am I still playing my top players to preserve the shut out?

Just not worth the potential headaches so we can all say this team is 2nd and this team is 3rd.

[This message has been edited by Aston94 (edited 4/26/2012 8:17a).]
agracer
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If you're up 8-0 it won't matter unless the other team scores 6 or more goals. GD is 3-0 max...that's it. I doubt you're going to give up 6-goals if you're winning 8-0 at any point during a U12 game.

And as I said, the standings don't count for anything. In fact, at the lower levels they would not display results/standings except that it shows up b/c of limitations of the software that TYSA uses (and all clubs use).

The only reason the club even tracks standings below U10 is b/c they break the teams into "A" and "B" groups. After the first half the season, the teams are reflighted so the competition level between the teams evens out.

NOTE: Last season in U11 TYSA had a play of tournament for D3 so the standings did matter. If you were not 1 or 2 in the fall you did not qualify. What do you do if two teams are #2 and did not play each other?
redd38
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put the crappy kid on defense, let him get scored on 6 or 8 times, then he'll quit the team

you're welcome
EclipseAg
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Good one, Redd!

Just as an FYI, many of the "weaker" players I had back in U12-U14 -- girls who struggled in Division 2 or Super II -- are now playing Division 1 club soccer and starting for their high school sides.

Every kid develops differently and some just take longer than others to "get" the game, especially if they are young for their age group starting out.


[This message has been edited by EclipseAg (edited 4/26/2012 10:43a).]
Aston94
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If you and your league are happy with goal differential then more power to you, I just see no point in it for 8 v. 8 u12 recreational soccer.

captainsubtext
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if it is similar to the competitive and rec leagues we are in, then points are calculated on the ten point model.

6 points for a win, 3 points for a tie, 1 point for a shutout and 1 point for a goal, capped at three. So max points for a win is 10. A loss can still result in points depending on goals scored.

So a 5-3 win would equal 9 points for winning team and three points for losing team.

If teams are tied on points then tiebreaker goes to NASL computation, head to head and eventually goals scored against. Goal differential is not considered.

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