I have a really, really hard time caring what they thought or felt.

I get that, but if I had to guess most are only thinking of surviving. Probably not too different from the mindset of the 30s which got them into that mess.

I'm sure some were holding a grudge over losing, but the masses couldn't afford to dwell on it.

Sapper Redux said:

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I have a really, really hard time caring what they thought or felt.

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So, you don't care 13 year old girls were still being raped by Soviets. They weren't responsible for the war. I agree the adults needed to work to rebuild and if they went hungry at times, that's something that as they say c'est la vie.

Sapper Redux said:

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I have a really, really hard time caring what they thought or felt.

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Interesting take. Liberalism is compassionate only to some peoples? Liberalism believes in collective guilt?

Many compare modern liberalism to legalistic religion, just with God removed. But the old views of sin, condemnation, permitted belief systems, high priests and enforcers of doctrine, bullying, and hypocrisy, are all present.

My mom with her first husband (who died in an air corp training accident) who was an officer in the Army were stationed in West Germany in the mid to late 50's. She had pictures and said many cities even 12-15 years after the war had huge areas that still looked like that.

Tecolote said:

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My mom with her first husband (who died in an air corp training accident) who was an officer in the Army were stationed in West Germany in the mid to late 50's. She had pictures and said many cities even 12-15 years after the war had huge areas that still looked like that.

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East German certainly did. West Germany rebuilt amazingly quickly. We lived there in the early 60s, and although signs of war still existed (mainly bullet pock marks in buildings), most of West Germany had been rebuilt by then.

jwoodmd said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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I have a really, really hard time caring what they thought or felt.

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So, you don't care 13 year old girls were still being raped by Soviets. They weren't responsible for the war. I agree the adults needed to work to rebuild and if they went hungry at times, that's something that as they say c'est la vie.

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So we're jumping from the feelings of Nazis as they clean up Berlin straight to rape? The Soviets weren't the only ones to rape. It was systematic across the Nazi army as well.

Sapper Redux said:

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Jabin said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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I have a really, really hard time caring what they thought or felt.

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Interesting take. Liberalism is compassionate only to some peoples? Liberalism believes in collective guilt?

Many compare modern liberalism to legalistic religion, just with God removed. But the old views of sin, condemnation, permitted belief systems, high priests and enforcers of doctrine, bullying, and hypocrisy, are all present.

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Given what they allowed to happen or actively did to some of my relatives, yeah, I have a very ****ing hard time giving a damn.

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But you're good with the Japanese?

This thread took a strange turn.

I think we can all acknowledge that the Germans got much of what they suffered deservedly. We can also acknowledge that going through the rebuild afterwards would be daunting and difficult. Them being human beings I can empathize with their suffering even if they had done bad previously. I take no pleasure in anyone suffering. Wishing bad/not caring for others does not reflect well on anyone.

AgBQ-00 said:

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I think we can all acknowledge that the Germans got much of what they suffered deservedly. We can also acknowledge that going through the rebuild afterwards would be daunting and difficult. Them being human beings I can empathize with their suffering even if they had done bad previously. I take no pleasure in anyone suffering. Wishing bad/not caring for others does not reflect well on anyone.

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Well said.

Also, not every German was a Nazi. Some even died resisting the Nazis. The post-war suffering was indifferent to one's prior beliefs and activities.

I'm actually shocked at Sapper's indifference to his attitude. His attitude is what leads to cascading evil. It's also flawed in that it's not clear what moral standard is used to determine when every individual in a society must suffer for the wrongs of the group.

I'm sure that there are some groups that Sapper feels have suffered unjustly (blacks, Native Americans, etc.). What standard does he use to determine that? Weren't some of the individuals in those groups evil? If so, why isn't that entire group deserving of punishment? Sapper's attitude to the Jews and Japanese is surprisingly similar to that of the Europeans against the Native Americans.

The older I get, the more I realize that people are mostly the same. We just want to be able to take care of ourselves, and our families and live a good life. Unfortunately, a lot of life is luck because we either avoid certain issues or problems depending on when and where we are born and vice versa.

I'd like to think that I wouldn't be a Nazi or fall for their BS but I can't say with any certainty that I would have.

I wasn't suggesting active punishment. I said I don't particularly care what their feelings were as they had to rebuild the city destroyed by the war their government started and they supported. The overwhelming majority of Germans supported the war.

A very very small amount resisted. The overwhelming majority approved of/agreed with the war, or at least as long as they were winning.

My maternal grandfather was in the 42nd Inf. Div. He always told stories about how that after the fighting passed through French towns that the locals would stand around and beg and plead for help. He said that after the fighting passed though a German town, the locals were out cleaning up the mess.

He had no love for the Germans because he was at Dachau... But he would always pointed out the differences between the French and the Germans... He said the never saw them begging.

Rabid Cougar said:

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My maternal grandfather was in the 42nd Inf. Div. He always told stories about how that after the fighting passed through French towns that the locals would stand around and beg and plead for help. He said that after the fighting passed though a German town, the locals were out cleaning up the mess.

He had no love for the Germans because he was at Dachau... But he would always point out the differences between the French and the Germans... He said the never saw them begging.

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Well Germany stripped the countries they occupied clean and send all the goodies back to the fatherland. The Germans didn't give **** about any of the locals or starving out the locals

It's been suggested before, but if one is really interested in the "how could this have happened in a civilized country", then I recommend reading Soldaten; On fighting, Killing and Dying, Especially the first 44 pages which lays out the psychological/sociological why.

Might find some common parallels in what is going on in this country today.

USA*** said:

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It's been suggested before, but if one is really interested in the "how could this have happened in a civilized country", then I recommend reading Soldaten; On fighting, Killing and Dying, Especially the first 44 pages which lays out the psychological/sociological why.

Might find some common parallels in what is going on in this country today.

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Yep. Everyone seems to think they'd be part of the resistance, or would have sheltered Anne Frank. The reality is most would happily be on the guard tower

JABQ04 said:

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Dude. Your name gets censored when someone quotes you.

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lol...welcome to 21 years ago when I first picked that name and have refused to change it out of pure spite. Funny, though, only does it on TexAgs.

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Given what they allowed to happen or actively did to some of my relatives, yeah, I have a very ****ing hard time giving a damn.

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They ARE my relatives, but I can separate that from other considerations. Some were Nazis, some weren't. It's a complex story to be sure, but Hitler only won 32 percent of the vote, and the only reason there wasn't significant opposition to him is that he had built a state that made it impossible.

I think the whole thing was more complex than we want to admit. We want to judge based on our experiences today, but that is not the life they lived. I have a friend that was visiting her grandmother in Belarus as a child. Regular German troups came through on their way to Russia and told the village to leave as the SS troops were coming and they would kill everyone, including women and children. My friend and her grandmother left and spent 4 years staying away from villages and living how they could. When they returned after the war, the Germans had driven a tank into their house, using it as camo. My dad as a 4 year old was going to the store to get bread as German POWs were returning from the fields near Orange, TX. One of them gave him the first stick of gum he ever had. Not all of them were Nazis. And some were good people. Many were not. My wife is from Russia and still has family there. They believe what Putin says. She has a couple of friends that are able to access outside news and they don't believe him, but many in Russia don't get to hear anything that Putin doesn't want them to hear. I suspect that many in Germany were the same way. And even if there were suspicions, do you risk your family by acting on those suspicions?

Sapper Redux said:

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aalan94 said:

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Quote:

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Given what they allowed to happen or actively did to some of my relatives, yeah, I have a very ****ing hard time giving a damn.

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They ARE my relatives, but I can separate that from other considerations. Some were Nazis, some weren't. It's a complex story to be sure, but Hitler only won 32 percent of the vote, and the only reason there wasn't significant opposition to him is that he had built a state that made it impossible.

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He had the support of other conservative parties and it would be extremely hard to say he was unpopular or only supported by 32% of voters in 1939.

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That's not being completely candid. The Nazis had been in power for 6 years by then and had total control of all of the reigns of power by then. I'm guessing you're overlooking that 1/3 of the German Lutheran pastors resigned in protest during that time period.

The Nazis had also done a lot of surface good in Germany during those 6 years; they'd resurrected the economy and, as we all learned from Clinton and Carville, that's all the electorate cares about. Are we any different?

Condemning the German support for the Nazis in 1939 is similar to condemning the Venezuelans for "reelecting" Maduro.

Finally, what do you mean by stating that Hitler had the support of the other conservative parties? Which parties? What do you mean by "support"? Did those parties know of and truly believe the future plans of the Nazis back in '33?

That was an awesome look at the past. Thanks for sharing.

I empathize with the German people to a point, as much of my family lineage hails from Germany. I would hate to have seen the US use A-Bombs to end the war there as we did in Japan. But once I reach the limit of my empathy, I also can say that one gets the government that they allow. It's a tough thing to say, though, at least in this case (and the case of the Japanese). How was the citizenry to have prevented the Nazis from doing what they did?

Jabin said:

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Also, not every German was a Nazi. Some even died resisting the Nazis. The post-war suffering was indifferent to one's prior beliefs and activities.

I'm actually shocked at Sapper's indifference to his attitude. His attitude is what leads to cascading evil. It's also flawed in that it's not clear what moral standard is used to determine when every individual in a society must suffer for the wrongs of the group.

I'm sure that there are some groups that Sapper feels have suffered unjustly (blacks, Native Americans, etc.). What standard does he use to determine that? Weren't some of the individuals in those groups evil? If so, why isn't that entire group deserving of punishment? Sapper's attitude to the Jews and Japanese is surprisingly similar to that of the Europeans against the Native Americans.

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This exact attitude after WW1 lead to WW2.

My dad was in the 505th parachute infantry regiment….jumped at Normandy, Nimejan, fought in bulge, Hurtgen. Shot twice, bronze star, silver star.

505th was rewarded with being the occupying unit of the American sector of Berlin in summer of 1945. My father was there that summer…..said the German citizens treated them better than the British or French citizens did.
I think his summer in Berlin was about his best memory of the war.

On the other end of the spectrum, my mother in law was a five year old child in occupied Chemnitz. I got to hear a lot of first-hand stories about the cruelty of the soviets. Eventually her dad was ransomed out of a Soviet prison camp and smuggled from east to west Germany by the British Air Force.

I should post a link to the family video's from 1938 wedding on this forum some time….fascinating to watch.