I was under the impression that any blacks on or behind confederate lines were either slaves, servants, cooks, and whatnot. That none actually fought.

Yet while reading about Teddy Roosevelt, I came across Holt Collier. He was the guy who took TR on a bear hunting trip (from which "teddy bear" was coined). It briefly mentioned him as a freed slave that fought for the confederacy. So I searched for him and came across this:

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Freed, prior to the war between North and South, Collier wanted to join up to serve the Confederacy. He was originally turned down for due to his age, but he was accepted in the 9th Texas Brigade. His service was honorable and would conclude as a trusted aide and sharpshooter under Confederate Lt. Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest.

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Is this full of crap? Or was my original understanding full of crap?

That wasn't the only site that said that, however. From the Fish and Wildlife Service:

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Collier guided many famous hunters, including President Theodore Roosevelt, who considered Collier the greatest hunter he ever met. An African-American who fought in the Confederate Army, Collier thrived in wilderness, yet killed hundreds of bears, making the way for civilization. T

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And the Mississippi Lower Delta Partnership:

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At the age of 14, Collier was given his freedom papers and then followed his former owner Howell Hinds to Memphis to join the Confederate Army where he first served as an orderly in a field hospital, then actively fought as a soldier, and served as a spy.

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Neither of those have a confederate axe to grind. I didn't include them because those sites are focused on nature, not history.

This site seems to be impartial on the topic, and concludes that there were indeed free blacks supported the confederates:

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Freehling is right. A few thousand blacks did indeed fight for the Confederacy. Significantly, African-American scholars from Ervin Jordan and Joseph Reidy to Juliet Walker and Henry Louis Gates Jr., editor-in-chief of The Root, have stood outside this impasse, acknowledging that a few blacks, slave and free, supported the Confederacy.

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Okay, I've lost two replies now. Check out Searching for Black Confederates, by Kevin Levin. The claims don't hold up under scrutiny. The only actual evidence we have for Collier is that he was enslaved and brought along as a camp slave. Could he have been armed at times? Sure. Was he a soldier? No actual evidence to support that.

Do you have the problem where you hit backspace and the page under the edit dialog goes to previous pages?

The first time. Second time was fat fingers on my part.

Sapper Redux said:

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The first time. Second time was fat fingers on my part.

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I have the first one all the time. I assume it was just me and my unusual browser choice.

BTW, I do not have time to read the book you suggest, but I have read summaries and you have convinced me.

9th Texas Brigade, huh?

Where did they fight?

One thing I find interesting is that Holt Collier was tried for killing a union captain after the war and was acquitted. Assuming that captain was white, I am a bit surprised that he was acquitted in the south. Offhand, one would assume a black man accused of killing a white was going to get rung up.

So either he didn't do it, and the jury was impartial, or he did do it and the jury respected him or hated the victim enough for them to OJ him.

Either way, that surprises me. I wonder what the story there really is.

Given Texas' treatment of freed blacks, I'd be incredibly dubious of any claims that a freed black man served willingly for Texas during the civil war unless compelling evidence were shared.

"The Constitution of the Republic of Texas designated people of one-eighth African blood as a separate and distinct group, took away citizenship, sought to restrict property rights, and forbade the permanent residence of free Blacks without the approval of the Congress of the Republic of Texas. "

"A stricter law passed in 1840, which gave free Blacks two years to leave Texas or risk being sold into slavery, was effectively postponed by President Sam Houston. "

"In 1858 the legislature even passed a law that encouraged free Blacks to reenter slavery voluntarily by allowing them to choose their own masters."

In an 1860 census, only 355 free blacks were counted in the state.

https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/free-blacks

Britt Johnson was away working as a teamster for the CSA when his white wife and children was captured by the Comanches during the Elm Creek Raid in 1863. He was in part the inspiration for the John Wayne character in the movie The Searchers

BQ78 said:

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Britt Johnson was away working as a teamster for the CSA when his white wife and children was captured by the Comanches during the Elm Creek Raid in 1863. He was in part the inspiration for the John Wayne character in the movie The Searchers

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He actually wasn't the inspiration for the Searchers! Alan LeMay used Cynthia Ann Parker's story and her Uncle James Parker's search for her for his story…he just moved the timeline. Author Glenn Frankel used LeMay's notes in his well researched book The Searchers…The Making of an American Legend!! LeMay's own notes say he based his book off of James Parker!

We've had this discussion before, LeMay's notes said he based it on both men.

Texas Ranger Hall of Fame thinks so too:

https://www.texasranger.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Artifacts-Britton-Johnson.pdf

BQ78 said:

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We've had this discussion before, LeMay's notes said he based it on both men.

Texas Ranger Hall of Fame thinks so too:

https://www.texasranger.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Artifacts-Britton-Johnson.pdf

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Yes we've had this discussion before….LeMay researched 64 accounts of Indian abductions, including Britt Johnson's family. However, he used James Parker for his character Amos Edwards (Ethan in the movie)….he's an uncle searching for his 9 year old niece…I think ts a stretch to make Britt Johnson as the character.

How is it a stretch when Johnson basically looked for his family in the same way that Ethan does in The Searchers?

Afraid we will have to disagree that Johnson didn't influence the story. Evidently LeMay was so intrigued by Johnson that he wrote another script for a TV Western but it was not picked up. I know SC Gwynne agrees with me in Empire of the Summer Moon.

BQ78 said:

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How is it a stretch when Johnson basically looked for his family in the same way that Ethan does in The Searchers?

Afraid we will have to disagree that Johnson didn't influence the story. Evidently LeMay was so intrigued by Johnson that he wrote another script for a TV Western but it was not picked up.

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Frankel was able to get ahold of 23 boxes of files belonging to LeMay and they revealed that LeMay's Searchers was definitely based on James Parker. It's not a story of a man looking for his wife and kids… it's an Uncle looking for his 9 year old niece….LeMay even came to East Texas to interview members of the Parker family!

Parker didn't make the trips and distances of Johnson, like Ethan does in The Searchers I don't have access to LeMay's notes to tell you where to look but Johnson is definitely an influence in those notes per David P. Smith and SC Gwynne, they are both convinced Johnson is the primary influence for the story.

I don't think we will be able to convince each other to change our opinion

Scott Zesch in his history of Indian abductions on the Texas Frontier also says Johnson was the inspiration for The Searchers. Many respected historians perpetrate this "lie" apparantly.

James Parker made 5 separate attempts over 7 years to rescue Cynthia Ann, and later went all the way to Missouri when a child was rescued with her description. He had intense hatred for the Comanche…he even shot and killed an older Comanche he encountered at an Indian Agency wearing a yellow vest he was sure was taken from Parker's Fort. He had several engagements with Comanche on his quest. I'll stick with Frankel's verified information since he was privy to LeMay's actual notes on the Searchers. I mean, seeing the actual notes from the author himself would seem to trump other historians who may have never actually read the notes….

I will concede that since LeMay researched 64 captive narratives that there were quite a few characteristics of the Brit Johnson story within his book…(I think Historians prior to Frankel's research might have come to that conclusion….no one was "lying", they were merely piggybacking off of prior assumptions)...although the mere fact that LeMay went to see the Parker family and was extremely interested in James Parker and his "search" for the captives, combined with the overall theme of the book being an uncle trying to retrieve his 9 year old niece (the essence of the story)….that there's no doubt it's "primarily" based on Cynthia Ann Parker. (Sorry to hijack the thread)

Bass Reeves fought and killed Yanks but was not free....Taylor said so.

I'm highly dubious that any black man willingly fought for the Confederate Army. The Confederates certainly didn't relish armed slaves or freeman. They killed every USCT they could get ahold of at Petersburg. The white Federal troops hated the USCTs taking up positions next to them in the works because of the extra "attention" that they attracted.

Exactly, the biggest obstacle to black troops in the Confederacy, was not so much the inability to recruit them as it was the fears and prejudices of the Confederate soldiers and government themselves. As early as the winter of 1863 Pat Cleburne had suggested the idea and was heavily censured by the Davis government and never saw another promotion, although he was the most worthy in the Army of Tennessee. Lee himself was shocked by Cleburne's proposal and said, the "relation of master and slave... is the best that can exist between the white and black races while intermingled as at present in this country."

But a year later he reluctantly tempered this belief and said black recruitment was necessary "to avert a great calamity" and it had to be done with freedom for the black soldiers. If anyone other than Lee had proposed this, even with just months to go in the war, it would have been rejected outright but Lee was held in such regard that when it was debated in congress and the army it passed muster but not without reluctance and with some rejection. With the Confederacy staring defeat in the face some of the men even with Lee's endorsement rejected the idea. One North Carolinian wrote home, "I did not volunteer my services to fight for a free negros country but to fight for A free white man's free country and I do not think I love my country well enough to fight with black soldiers."

By the time any black soldiers were recruited and were in training in Richmond, it was less than a month until the city fell and the numbers were battalion size at best.