The battle got going when a PBY from Midway spotted the Jap transports. Later in the day B-17s from Midway dropped bombs on the transports with no hits.
Battle of Midway 80 Years Ago Today
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Last: 1 yr ago by OldArmy71
I wish titan was still around to fill us all in on the latest developments in and around this game-changing battle.
I know it's been posted on this forum before, but this series is a good look at the Battle from the Japanese side
What happened to Titan? He just not post anymore?
The more I study this battle the more amazing our victory.
It truly was the " Miracle at Midway "
The japs outweighed us in every department. At that point in the war better aircraft & much more experienced combat pilots.
Let's all be thankful it was Nagumo in overall command of the carriers & not Yamaguchi.
It truly was the " Miracle at Midway "
The japs outweighed us in every department. At that point in the war better aircraft & much more experienced combat pilots.
Let's all be thankful it was Nagumo in overall command of the carriers & not Yamaguchi.
I kind of feel obligated to post on this day. 
These three fairly recent videos shed some light on some post-Shattered Sword findings.
They're all over an hour in length, but worth it.
These three fairly recent videos shed some light on some post-Shattered Sword findings.
They're all over an hour in length, but worth it.
A couple of naval aviators discuss the battle:
I recently read Craig Symonds' Battle of Midway. (Published in 2013, after Shattered Sword). To me, the most interesting part of Symonds' account is the chapter on the Hornet air group's 'flight to nowhere', how Stanhope Ring basically lost control of his air wing, starting with Joe Waldron taking Torpedo 8 off on a different heading (which eventually found the Japanese carriers), and the fact that the incident was covered up in the post battle reports by Mitscher.
That flight to nowhere was a huge missed opportunity. If Ring had followed Waldron's advice, the Americans might well have gotten all 4 of the Japanese carriers in the first strike. As it was, Hornet's air group didn't hit a Japanese ship until the last day of the battle, the cruisers Mogami and Mikuma.
I also found it notable that the Hornet was a very new ship, with an inexperienced air group. She'd only been in commission since March 1942, and had spent part of that time on the Doolittle Raid, with her air group unable to fly until Doolittle's planes were launched.
I recently read Craig Symonds' Battle of Midway. (Published in 2013, after Shattered Sword). To me, the most interesting part of Symonds' account is the chapter on the Hornet air group's 'flight to nowhere', how Stanhope Ring basically lost control of his air wing, starting with Joe Waldron taking Torpedo 8 off on a different heading (which eventually found the Japanese carriers), and the fact that the incident was covered up in the post battle reports by Mitscher.
That flight to nowhere was a huge missed opportunity. If Ring had followed Waldron's advice, the Americans might well have gotten all 4 of the Japanese carriers in the first strike. As it was, Hornet's air group didn't hit a Japanese ship until the last day of the battle, the cruisers Mogami and Mikuma.
I also found it notable that the Hornet was a very new ship, with an inexperienced air group. She'd only been in commission since March 1942, and had spent part of that time on the Doolittle Raid, with her air group unable to fly until Doolittle's planes were launched.
I saw something from Parshall this weekend (and it should be published soon, if it hasn't already, and hell, maybe it's in one of the videos I posted) in which he blames Mitscher for the loss of Yorktown. Had HAG's two VSB squadrons found Kido Butai, they PROBABLY would have knocked one of the four carriers out, and then VB-6 & VS-6 & VB-3 almost certainly would have got the others.
However and IMHO, if Fletcher would have sent 'Scouting" Five out after the rest of YAG as originally planned, they could have pounced Hiryu, preventing Yorktown's loss, too.
As it turned out, VF-3 did shred Hiryu's squadrons pretty well, and caused the greatest loss of Japanese airmen in the battle. IIRC, only 7 Akagi pilots were lost in the battle, as an example.
However and IMHO, if Fletcher would have sent 'Scouting" Five out after the rest of YAG as originally planned, they could have pounced Hiryu, preventing Yorktown's loss, too.
As it turned out, VF-3 did shred Hiryu's squadrons pretty well, and caused the greatest loss of Japanese airmen in the battle. IIRC, only 7 Akagi pilots were lost in the battle, as an example.
My understanding from Symond's book is that the flight plan for the Hornet's air group was Ring's. It was approved by Mitscher, who was both Hornet's captain and the senior and most experienced aviator among the American officers present.
Waldron objected to the planned heading during planning, but was overruled by Ring, and took his squadron off on a more southerly heading shorting after leaving the vicinity of the Hornet. VT-6, as we know, ultimately found the Kido Butai, while the rest of Hornet's air group never did.
Symonds draws implications from various sources that since the scout planes had only reported the presence of 2 Japanese carriers, not all 4, that Mitscher and Ring, at least, assumed that the other 2 must be further to the north of the 2 already located, and that Ring's more northerly heading was going to where he guessed they would be.
Waldron objected to the planned heading during planning, but was overruled by Ring, and took his squadron off on a more southerly heading shorting after leaving the vicinity of the Hornet. VT-6, as we know, ultimately found the Kido Butai, while the rest of Hornet's air group never did.
Symonds draws implications from various sources that since the scout planes had only reported the presence of 2 Japanese carriers, not all 4, that Mitscher and Ring, at least, assumed that the other 2 must be further to the north of the 2 already located, and that Ring's more northerly heading was going to where he guessed they would be.
Saw him posting on Politics today…he'll probably be around soon.JABQ04 said:
What happened to Titan? He just not post anymore?
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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AG
Wasn't there an Aggie who had been shot down but watched the battle from his life vest?
The fundamental issue is japan went to war due to pressure from the soviets and us, and internal politics, not by choice. and their army navy and political leadership were all at odds. Thus they had no strategy, tactics, or plan at all basically. Combine that with nagumo being a moron, and they basically lost the naval war in 7 months despite the us basically not even having a navy.
Nothing takes away the skill and courage of those few 'tip of the american spear' badasses that broke the codes, made bold and brilliant plans, risked or gave their lives and made it happen.
Nothing takes away the skill and courage of those few 'tip of the american spear' badasses that broke the codes, made bold and brilliant plans, risked or gave their lives and made it happen.
Ensign george gay iirc.BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:
Wasn't there an Aggie who had been shot down but watched the battle from his life vest?
Sole survivor, Torpedo Squadron 8cbr said:Ensign george gay iirc.BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:
Wasn't there an Aggie who had been shot down but watched the battle from his life vest?
I looked for years for Gay's book Sole Survivor and by luck found it on a used book website a couple years ago. I got the book and when I opened to inside the cover the book was signed by George Gay. Couldn't believe that I had a signed book by the Aggie that watched much of the Battle of Midway from a life raft.
Watched hiding under a seat cushion. If he'd been in a life raft he would have met the same fate as Bruno Gaido or Ensigns O'Flaherty and Osmus, who were picked up by the Japanese after their planes went down. Gaido and O'Flaherty were interrogated and torture before being tied and weighed down by water cans before being thrown overboard. Osmus was killed by a fire axe.
I'm trying to understand how pressure from the U.S. and USSR caused Japan to occupy Manchuria in 1931, or invade the rest of China starting in 1937, or to occupy French Indochina.cbr said:
The fundamental issue is japan went to war due to pressure from the soviets and us, and internal politics, not by choice. and their army navy and political leadership were all at odds. Thus they had no strategy, tactics, or plan at all basically. Combine that with nagumo being a moron, and they basically lost the naval war in 7 months despite the us basically not even having a navy.
Nothing takes away the skill and courage of those few 'tip of the american spear' badasses that broke the codes, made bold and brilliant plans, risked or gave their lives and made it happen.
They did all that on their own, because they wanted to be a Great Power, and to achieve that they needed resources that the home islands simply didn't have.
Now, I can understand how the U.S. response to the Japanese occupation of Indochina led Japan to choose the option they did - but it was Japan's choice. They could have taken the option of pulling out of Indochina. That was an option - just not one that they were willing to consider.
Japan actually had a strategy to at least force the United States into a negotiated peace - basically, lure the USN into a mad dash across the Pacific to save the Philippines, attrit them on the way across, then defeat them in a decisive fleet battle somewhere in the western Pacific. It wasn't the best strategy, since it relied on the USN making that mad dash, rather than slowly and deliberately grinding through the central Pacific islands, but it was a strategy. And they threw it out the window when they decided to attack Pearl Harbor, thus pre-empting the Through Ticket option and forcing the USN to take the slow and deliberate option (which the U.S. Joint Planning Board, and especially the U.S. Marines, had been planning for since the end of WWI anyway.)
Even if the U.S. carriers had been at Pearl Harbor on December 7, and Nagumo had ordered follow up strikes that sank every ship in the harbor and destroyed or seriously damaged the support facilities, it would have delayed the end of the war by 2 years, 3 at the most. As long as the U.S. held the Alaska-Hawaii-Panama line, and once the Essex class fleet carriers and their supporting escorts began joining the fleet in early 1943, it was the beginning of the end for Japan. The only questions were how long it would take, and how many men would have to die. (And God help the Japanese if the U.S. had more than 2 A-bombs ready to go, which would have been the case if the seizure of the Marianas had been delayed by a year or two.)
We had three. The third was on its way from Los Alamos to the West Coast when the Japanese finally surrendered.Quote:
(And God help the Japanese if the U.S. had more than 2 A-bombs ready to go
But your point stands, in that production of weapons grade uranium and plutonium was very, very, slow.
CanyonAg77 said:We had three. The third was on its way from Los Alamos to the West Coast when the Japanese finally surrendered.Quote:
(And God help the Japanese if the U.S. had more than 2 A-bombs ready to go
But your point stands, in that production of weapons grade uranium and plutonium was very, very, slow.
And if the invasion of the Marianas is delayed by, say, 18 months, to early 1946, they'd have those 3 and more, and the cities of Japan would have been untouched by LeMay's firebombers.
IIRC, the uranium 235 in Little Boy (Hiroshima) comprised nearly the whole stock of that particular isotope. The U-235 gun-type bomb was not tested in advance because (1) the scarcity of enriched U-235; and (2) they were 99.99% certain, based on the criticality tests, that it would go off.CanyonAg77 said:We had three. The third was on its way from Los Alamos to the West Coast when the Japanese finally surrendered.Quote:
(And God help the Japanese if the U.S. had more than 2 A-bombs ready to go
But your point stands, in that production of weapons grade uranium and plutonium was very, very, slow.
It's been a while since I read the history. I would not be surprised if Little Boy used up almost all the Uranium available. I do recall that the production to recover it took an astounding amount of resources....including about 200-300 tons of silver from the U.S. Mint.
And I believe you are correct. They were totally convinced the gun-type weapon would work. Implosion, not so much. Thus the Trinity Test in July 1945.
And I believe you are correct. They were totally convinced the gun-type weapon would work. Implosion, not so much. Thus the Trinity Test in July 1945.
Wiki says 'Groves expected to have another atomic bomb ready for use on 19 August, with three more in September and a further three in October."
The don't specify what type, other than that the third bomb expected to be ready by mid August would have been a plutonium bomb (Fat Man).
So that would have been at least 9 bombs available at the end of 1946, plus the XX Air Force's B-29s (although without the early difficulties with B-29 bombing, particularly the first encounters with the jet stream, that led to the low level fire bombing tactics.)
The don't specify what type, other than that the third bomb expected to be ready by mid August would have been a plutonium bomb (Fat Man).
So that would have been at least 9 bombs available at the end of 1946, plus the XX Air Force's B-29s (although without the early difficulties with B-29 bombing, particularly the first encounters with the jet stream, that led to the low level fire bombing tactics.)
CanyonAg77 said:
It's been a while since I read the history. I would not be surprised if Little Boy used up almost all the Uranium available. I do recall that the production to recover it took an astounding amount of resources....including about 200-300 tons of silver from the U.S. Mint.
Wow! Never knew that...
And I believe you are correct. They were totally convinced the gun-type weapon would work. Implosion, not so much. Thus the Trinity Test in July 1945.
Yeah, that's a fascinating story. Copper was in short supply, and they needed miles of wiring for one of the plants producing uranium. So they signed out tons and tons of silver, used it to make their wiring, and after the war, melted it down and returned it. Total loss to the treasury was just a few ounces.
Remarkable that they had so little loss Today, most of it would have been stolen along the way.
Remarkable that they had so little loss Today, most of it would have been stolen along the way.
That would be 10 bombs, or 11 if you count Trinity. There were four by 10 August. Trinity, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and the one on the C-47 from Los Alamos, that landed on the West Coast as surrender was announced.
And while you are correct that the jet stream was a new and difficult problem, I'm pretty sure tactics were changed to low level, simply because they weren't hitting the targets from high aaltitude
And while you are correct that the jet stream was a new and difficult problem, I'm pretty sure tactics were changed to low level, simply because they weren't hitting the targets from high aaltitude
I looked it up, I was a little wrong on the amount of silver.
It was 14,700 tons.
Total loss was 36/1000 of one percent
https://exploreoakridge.com/fascinating-stories-from-the-manhattan-project/
It was 14,700 tons.
Total loss was 36/1000 of one percent
https://exploreoakridge.com/fascinating-stories-from-the-manhattan-project/
14,700 tons = 29,400,000 lbs
so, that quantity times 0.00036 is 10,584 lbs
at today's prices for silver that's worth $6,506,197
(assuming my math is correct. no guarantees on that)
so, that quantity times 0.00036 is 10,584 lbs
at today's prices for silver that's worth $6,506,197
(assuming my math is correct. no guarantees on that)
Late to the punch. I am deployed on the USS Ronald Reagan in the Pacific. We had a cool memorial ceremony on the day, about 1000 miles West of the battle area.
It's kind of poetic, a memorial ceremony on a U.S. carrier based out of Japan.aalan94 said:
Late to the punch. I am deployed on the USS Ronald Reagan in the Pacific. We had a cool memorial ceremony on the day, about 1000 miles West of the battle area.
If my memory serves me properly we had a general idea of the location of the Japanese fleet. We sent wave after wave of bombers to attack the Japanese fleet. At first they hit nothing because of high altitude bombing. Eventually the dive bombers hit the Japanese fleet. The Japanese rear admiral took a risk. His carriers sent out planes to find and attack our fleet, but he could simultaneously defend his fleet with the planes.
The Japanese aircraft carriers became the asset they needed to continue fighting our fleets. When they lost all operational carriers the gig was up. She had no naval aviation to attack our fleets or defend hers. We owned the sky. Then we owned the sea. It was just a matter of time for us to achieve victory over Japan.
The Japanese aircraft carriers became the asset they needed to continue fighting our fleets. When they lost all operational carriers the gig was up. She had no naval aviation to attack our fleets or defend hers. We owned the sky. Then we owned the sea. It was just a matter of time for us to achieve victory over Japan.
My book Sole Survivor mentioned above as this inside the front cover:
To Lois _____, may all your luck be as good as mine was at Midway.
Signed George Gay,
Keep America Strong
2 Aug '82.
Haunting.
To Lois _____, may all your luck be as good as mine was at Midway.
Signed George Gay,
Keep America Strong
2 Aug '82.
Haunting.
Fascinating and informative video. Lotta brave men sacrificed themselves for what proved to be the beginning of the end of Japan's effort to be the hegemon of the Far East. [Removed]
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[We have a politics board for the part that we removed. Please keep those kinds of statements on this board in order to keep the conversations civil. -Staff]
George Gay Interview Video
Greater love hath no man than this....
Found an even more detailed article about the project. Quite fascinating.CanyonAg77 said:
I looked it up, I was a little wrong on the amount of silver.
It was 14,700 tons.
Total loss was 36/1000 of one percent
https://exploreoakridge.com/fascinating-stories-from-the-manhattan-project/
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Bullion+to+B-fields%3a+The+Silver+Program+of+the+Manhattan+Project.-a0218112265
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