I've seen comments in the past on this board about Gwynne either over stating things, or being incorrect about things. For those that know more than me about that era and the stuff referenced, what mistakes/errors did he make?

I'm just now getting around to reading it and I'm liking it thus far (only two chapters in) but as I continue I'd like to know where other people disagree with his storylines.

TIA

https://texags.com/forums/49/topics/1677694

https://texags.com/forums/49/topics/2031529

Something I posted earlier, probably repeated in those links:

Empire started out seeming to buy into the Noble Savage myth, but it finished being much more balanced. The initial passages also contained some huge inaccuracies, I seem to recall it claimed 40 foot snowdrifts in the Panhandle. But on balance, it's very good.

Being right here in the middle of the Red River Wars country, I find this history pretty fascinating myself. I've found the link below to be a fascinating waste of hours of time...

https://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/redriver/index.html

The "50 foot snow drift" caught my attention as well but he wasn't referring to the panhandle specifically, he was talking about in their territory. That makes it possible that he was speaking about areas in Colorado, western Kansas and Nebraska, etc. I'm guessing that a 50 foot snow drift would be a rare (if ever) thing even in those areas but just pointing out that he wasn't limiting that comment to Texas.


ETA: and thanks for linking that old thread! I'm guessing that's the one I was thinking of but man it doesn't seem like it was 11 years ago when I was reading that discussion!

Sam's new history on the end of the Civil War is getting some criticism for being too politically correct. I haven't read it yet (it's on the long list). Sam is a former editor of Texas Monthly so that tells you about his politics. But I know him and he is a good guy and he isn't politically myopic.

"found his life after he came to the reservation as interesting as his life prior."

I feel the same way. A few years ago I got into a Quanah Parker/Parker Family wormhole and got pretty deep. In my mind it's such an American story. I always felt with Quanah there seems to be so many conflicting details that follow the Pease River conflict along with the history of his early life. After a few years we see him re-emerge as a great warrior/leader then come into the reservation. That seems like such an oversimplification and I don't mean to be so brief. It's always so difficult to know where to begin. His life is one of those cases of history that requires no embellishment whatsoever to appear miraculous.

I was being tongue and cheek about the "getting captured" part. I knew of some of the torture that the plains Indians and apaches used but not quite all of them that the book referenced. Definitely better to die fighting than get taken alive.

I'll be honest, this was one of my favorite parts.

Quote:

---

But Americans also took offense at one Comanche war chief's name: Po-cha-na-quar-hip, who led raids against white settlers, was colloquially referred to as "Buffalo Hump," but his name actually meant something along the lines of "erection that won't go down."

---

Quote:

---

Getting captured by Comanches was a bad thing!

---

For a female or an adult male, you are correct. A young male, if they were tough enough, was adopted into the tribe and had a grand time.

Yeah, Matilda Lockhart felt the wrath of Buffalo Hump but it was torture that did not stop.

Rabid Cougar said:

---

I used to sit out on "hill" at my sister's 15 section "farm" just south of the Tule Draw west of Tulia. The farm has been her husbands family since the early 1900's and this "hill" had never been "busted". I would sit and visualize Coronado and his expedition meandering around that place as well as the buffalo and elk that once grazed upon the grasses on it.

You could "feel" THEM there. A white man had a death wish if he had been sitting where I was a little over 120 years before.

---

I bet the Comanchero Trail from Los Lingas to Santa Fe crossed that land.

Stive said:

---

Finally finished this today. Awesome read!

Getting captured by Comanches was a bad thing!

Loved Quanah's line about peyote:

"The white man goes into his church and talks ABOUT Jesus, but the Indian goes into his tipi and talks To Jesus."

I found his life after he came to the reservation as interesting as his life prior.

---

I'm given to understand that Quanah was quite the business man as well.

CanyonAg77 said:

---

Quote:

---

Getting captured by Comanches was a bad thing!

---

For a female or an adult male, you are correct. A young male, if they were tough enough, was adopted into the tribe and had a grand time.

---

Reading Summer Moon now and he quotes Herman Lehmann's story who went full blown Indian

I just ordered Rachel Plummer's narrative and need to get Lehmann's as well

I tend to get side tracked and start googling specifics - came across this when I dug more into Spanish Fort & their (Parilla) response to the San Saba Massacre (can't believe I've never known about or visited the site)

https://www.forttours.com/pdf%20files/McConnell%20Part%20I.pdf


fort tours.com has some interesting stuff