I ran across this picture earlier and some questions come to mind.

1. How could Switzerland and Sweden just sit it out? Did they have nothing the Nazis were interested in?

2. Spain. They were on the fence and apparently had their people fighting on both sides. Instead of an iffy proposotion of a Normandy invasion, or anywhere else along the Atlantic Wall, did the Allies ever consider going through Spain? Difficult geography or just not a politically good decision in that it would have pushed a fence rider to the axis side? But if their beaches weren't fortified, well, screw 'em.

With all of them, including Ireland, one would have to assume that if Britain had fallen, and if the Nazis/Axis had managed to solidify their control of Europe, they were coming for them next.

Main reason nazis took Norway was because of Swedish iron ore. Narvik was close to Swedish mines at Gallivarre (sp).

Franco had just been through a civil war and no intentions of putting fascist ideology above rebuilding his homeland.

JR_83 said:

---

Franco had just been through a civil war and no intentions of putting fascist ideology above rebuilding his homeland.

Had the Allies tried to go through Spain Franco would have fought them tooth and nail.

Switzerland is practically impossible to invade.

---

From a strategic point, it seems like going through Spain would put you in a bottle neck with few options. The Pyrenees narrow down your options even more and at that point, the German army knows where you're trying to funnel through and can throw everything at you in a small(er) spot to slow or stop your advance.

The Swiss were neutral in name only. They were sympathetic to Germany and to a great extent Nazism as well. For example, one reason the Schweinfurt raids weren't successful was that any shortfall in ball bearing production was made up for from production in Switzerland. They supplied many things to the Germans throughout the war. Given that, the juice just wasn't worth the squeeze to the Germans in terms of invading Switzerland.

As Stive mentioned, between having to fight Franco's army as well as the Pyrenees limiting your options for invading France from Spain made invading Spain a non starter.

Thanks all. Sometimes if i think of a question I'll pose it here and then read up on the same stuff in parallel. In doing so i may ask questions that don't make a lot of sense but i do like the conversation.

I have always viewed neutrals such as Spain in WW II as analogous to a neighbor who would deny the police access to their property to take out bad guys. Easy to judge from afar though.

Probably why he wouldn't have willingly let the allies go through one of their ports to bypass the atlantic wall. For the sake of argument, if geography was favorable to go through Spain would the Allies have possibly exploited that? Would it have been due to not wanting to get Spain involved or because that's just not what the allies were about?

Edit - the Nazis likely would have 'occupied' the port that was vulnerable to preclude that from happening.

JJMt said:

---

Also, why would the Allies have added hundreds of miles they'd need to cover by invading through Spain. Normandy was both very close to Great Britain and very close to Germany. And, other than Omaha Beach, weren't the Allied landings rather easy?

---

The Canadians were supposed to capture Caen on the first day of Overlord. Took them 60 days to do so.
Anzio started out as a cake walk but quickly went south on the second day. The didn't break out until 135 days later.

JR_83 said:

---

Main reason nazis took Norway was because of Swedish iron ore. Narvik was close to Swedish mines at Gallivarre (sp).

---

Didn't Norway also have the Heavy Water the Nazis were after for their nuclear program?

IDAGG said:

---

The Swiss were neutral in name only. They were sympathetic to Germany and to a great extent Nazism as well. For example, one reason the Schweinfurt raids weren't successful was that any shortfall in ball bearing production was made up for from production in Switzerland. They supplied many things to the Germans throughout the war. Given that, the juice just wasn't worth the squeeze to the Germans in terms of invading Switzerland.

As Stive mentioned, between having to fight Franco's army as well as the Pyrenees limiting your options for invading France from Spain made invading Spain a non starter.

---

I have been aware that the Swiss, especially given geography, walked a tightrope to maintain "neutrality". I have never, though, investigated what this might have entailed; that the tightrope might have been stretched somewhat right of center.

This looks like an interesting subject, and I look forward to reading more.Thanks for pointing it out.

Also interesting is that Franco was cagily able to stay out of the war even though Hitler expected -- much of the time was confident -- Spain would enter as his ally at any time. The Allies, and especially Churchill, did all in their power diplomatically, clandestinely and any other way they could think of, to keep Franco and Spain on the sideline.

I could be corrected, but I don't think there was any danger of, as long as it was not participating, Spain being forced by the allies to defend itself. They were all in on the idea that if Hitler was prevented from making use of Spain, they were willing not to, either.

That Franco couldn't even be induced to initiate the comparatively easy reduction of Gibraltar from the land side was huge for both sides.

JJMt said:

---

I meant the Normandy landings, other than Omaha. In other words, Spain offered no advantage to Normandy, and many, many disadvantages, no?

---

Eisenhower prepared a statement in case the landings failed. Yes, Utah may have turned out to be better than Omaha but there were certainly no guarantees.

Here is a decent article on some of these neutrality issues:

Quote:

---

The neutral states of World War II -- among them Switzerland, Sweden and Portugal -- composed their neutrality day after day. The Swiss did not want the Germans in Geneva but did not have an army that could stop them from getting there. The Portuguese, led by a fascist, were worried about what the British might do to their African colonies. The Swedes needed German coal and the Germans needed Swedish iron ore. Such equations -- involving geography, economic interest, historical ties, strategic aims and emotional sympathies -- defined policy. Survival mattered above all.

---

Quote:

---

''Sweden was not neutral, Sweden was weak,'' said Arne Ruth, a Swedish journalist who has written a book on the Third Reich. ''Its sales of iron ore made an important contribution to the German effort. It allowed German troops and weaponry through its territory to Norway. In 1943, its government told the central bank to ignore suspicions that German gold Sweden received was looted.

---

This next quote is right on. While most of us would like to think the Swiss army would have acquitted itself well if the Germans had invaded in WW II, the fact is that the German Army would have made short work of Switzerland except for maybe some mountain redoubts.

Quote:

---

''The romantic idea of the Swiss citizen army standing between it and disaster in the war was always nonsense,'' said Arno J. Mayer, a professor of history at Princeton University. ''Given the fact it borders Germany, it was natural for it to lean more toward the Axis powers.

---

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/01/26/weekinreview/the-not-so-neutrals-of-world-war-ii.html

Quote:

---

Franco in Spain most likely didn't view the Nazis as the bad guys.

---

Yeah, you could say that ...

JJMt said:

---

I meant the Normandy landings, other than Omaha. In other words, Spain offered no advantage to Normandy, and many, many disadvantages, no?

---

That would be correct.

IDAGG said:

---

Here is a decent article on some of these neutrality issues:

Quote:

---

The neutral states of World War II -- among them Switzerland, Sweden and Portugal -- composed their neutrality day after day. The Swiss did not want the Germans in Geneva but did not have an army that could stop them from getting there. The Portuguese, led by a fascist, were worried about what the British might do to their African colonies. The Swedes needed German coal and the Germans needed Swedish iron ore. Such equations -- involving geography, economic interest, historical ties, strategic aims and emotional sympathies -- defined policy. Survival mattered above all.

---

Quote:

---

''Sweden was not neutral, Sweden was weak,'' said Arne Ruth, a Swedish journalist who has written a book on the Third Reich. ''Its sales of iron ore made an important contribution to the German effort. It allowed German troops and weaponry through its territory to Norway. In 1943, its government told the central bank to ignore suspicions that German gold Sweden received was looted.

---

This next quote is right on. While most of us would like to think the Swiss army would have acquitted itself well if the Germans had invaded in WW II, the fact is that the German Army would have made short work of Switzerland except for maybe some mountain redoubts.

Quote:

---

''The romantic idea of the Swiss citizen army standing between it and disaster in the war was always nonsense,'' said Arno J. Mayer, a professor of history at Princeton University. ''Given the fact it borders Germany, it was natural for it to lean more toward the Axis powers.

---

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/01/26/weekinreview/the-not-so-neutrals-of-world-war-ii.html

---

The Portuguese actually stood by the oldest military alliance in existence; the 600 year old Anglo-Portuguese Alliance dating to 1386. the Brits finally gained use of the Azores because of it.

The Spanish were most definitely on the side of the Axis. In a sense Franco owed the Germans for his win in the Spanish Civil War. But his pay back was always on the sligh. A whole division of Spaniards fought on the Russian Front and was known as the Blue Division, however they were not recruited in Spain but were allowed to cross into France and enlist. Perhaps the biggest role Spain had in the war was the "Man Who Never Was" episode. This was how the allies confirmed that they had broken the Ultra Code. They planted a message on the body of a dead man that they masqueraded as a Royal Navy Officer. The body was put ashore in Spain and the Franco government turned the message over to the Germans. When the Germans talked about the message on Ultra, the British knew they had broken the code.

IDAGG said:

---

The Swiss were neutral in name only. They were sympathetic to Germany and to a great extent Nazism as well. For example, one reason the Schweinfurt raids weren't successful was that any shortfall in ball bearing production was made up for from production in Switzerland. They supplied many things to the Germans throughout the war. Given that, the juice just wasn't worth the squeeze to the Germans in terms of invading Switzerland.

As Stive mentioned, between having to fight Franco's army as well as the Pyrenees limiting your options for invading France from Spain made invading Spain a non starter.

---

Yep

plus the Germans used the Swiss to launder money and gold. neither wanted the status quo to change.

Quote:

---

The Swiss were neutral in name only. They were sympathetic to Germany and to a great extent Nazism as well. For example, one reason the Schweinfurt raids weren't successful was that any shortfall in ball bearing production was made up for from production in Switzerland. They supplied many things to the Germans throughout the war. Given that, the juice just wasn't worth the squeeze to the Germans in terms of invading Switzerland.

---

No. The Swiss were not sympathetic to the Nazis, or Switzerland as a whole, although there were some in Switzerland who were. After World War I, there were signs in Switzerland that said "Dogs and Germans not allowed." That wasn't everywhere, but it shows how intense the anti-German feeling was among some Swiss.
The Nazis did draw up plans to invade Switzerland, but never did. The Swiss army was strong, mobilized very early on, and had stockpiled weapons and ammo in the mountains with plans for a guerilla war. And there was no need for Germany to invade. Every country Germany conquered they had to garrison, and that progressively weakened them. If the troops occupying Norway or France or whatever had been on the Eastern front, they and other basically wasted troops, could have made a difference early on.

As for Franco, look at the map. He's hugely exposed and his nation was exhausted from its own war. There was no way he was getting in on Hitler's side. If Hitler had delayed until 1942, maybe, but probably not then, even.

aalan94 said:

---

Quote:

---

The Swiss were neutral in name only. They were sympathetic to Germany and to a great extent Nazism as well. For example, one reason the Schweinfurt raids weren't successful was that any shortfall in ball bearing production was made up for from production in Switzerland. They supplied many things to the Germans throughout the war. Given that, the juice just wasn't worth the squeeze to the Germans in terms of invading Switzerland.

---

No. The Swiss were not sympathetic to the Nazis, or Switzerland as a whole, although there were some in Switzerland who were. After World War I, there were signs in Switzerland that said "Dogs and Germans not allowed." That wasn't everywhere, but it shows how intense the anti-German feeling was among some Swiss.
The Nazis did draw up plans to invade Switzerland, but never did. The Swiss army was strong, mobilized very early on, and had stockpiled weapons and ammo in the mountains with plans for a guerilla war. And there was no need for Germany to invade. Every country Germany conquered they had to garrison, and that progressively weakened them. If the troops occupying Norway or France or whatever had been on the Eastern front, they and other basically wasted troops, could have made a difference early on.

---

Some of the Swiss leadership was definitely sympathetic to the Nazis. In addition, at some point the Swiss demobilized a lot of their troops that were on alert so that they could go back to work in factories etc. leaving the frontier mostly undefended. There was most likely an "understanding" between the Swiss and German governments that Germany wouldn't invade, and the Swiss would therefore be able to produce more with their army demobilized and back in the workforce.

Hitler bombed the ever loving hell out of Spain during the Spanish Civil War. He was practicing for WW II and wanted to also help Franco. Picasso painted a piece about it. The town was called Guernica. As for Switzerland did they not hold many countries' bank deposits?

This is begging for a caption contest.

Supposedly, Franco was nobody's fool when it came to joining the war. He told Hitler that he was ready to join the fray whenever Germany could fully and suitably support/arm them - knowing full well that all of Germany's armaments production had to go support the Wehrmact/Heer and Luftwaffe. As noted above, he did send the 250th (Blue) Infantry Division to join the Wehrmact/Heer, where they compiled an impressive combat record, including on the Eastern Front. It got them out of Franco's hair for the duration, as well. Blue Division was also infamous for parading before their German brass with condoms dangling from the end of their rifles. Apparently, they didn't appreciate being ordered not to fraternize with local women.

"Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges.
I don't have to show you any stinking badges."

"Senor Hitler, we hear you like to dance.
Por favor, won't you dance for us?"

I have wondered what would have happened if the Germans had taken Gibraltar and the suez, and then struck east through Romania and towards the Crimea. And Japan could have linked up southwest into the Indian Ocean/ Mideast instead of pearl.

If they had consolidated power that way, they might have been too tough a nut to crack.

If they did that, they probably turn turkey too, and the eventual soviet war is still a doozy, but Britain and the us may not have been able to stay in until it started.

cbr said:

---

I have wondered what would have happened if the Germans had taken Gibraltar and the suez, and then struck east through Romania and towards the Crimea. And Japan could have linked up southwest into the Indian Ocean/ Mideast instead of pearl.

If they had consolidated power that way, they might have been too tough a nut to crack.

If they did that, they probably turn turkey too, and the eventual soviet war is still a doozy, but Britain and the us may not have been able to stay in until it started.

---

Germany did attack from
Romania into the Crimea with the ultimate goal of the caucuses. Now if the Germans took Gilbrator and the Suez and sent more forces to North Africa then Egypt and the Middle East probably would have fallen. From there they either take Turkey outright or have them join the axis. Taking Turkey And the Germans would be on the border of the Russian oil fields. I don't see how the Russians could have held off the Germans if they lost their oil fields in 1941 and did not have American supplies sent through Iran

Yeah, but the ultimate problem the Germans always faced was lack of manpower. You have to garrison all those places you take, and they were spread too thin. Then you have to supply these places. They ultimately went to the expedient (as the Roman Empire had) of depending on large numbers of foreign troops to fill out their ranks, but these were of questionable ability. Some fought well, some not so well, particularly those on the flanks of Stalingrad.

Anyone who tells you Germany could have conquered the world is a fool. They could have intimidated the world into accepting their gains, and they could have beaten any of the countries they faced individually (even Russia, but the key term here is "individually" - a 2 front war is almost impossible to win).

Which is a strange thing for seemingly intelligent people to do. Germany had more allies in WW I and lost. They essentially tried the same thing in WW II minus the Balkans (they left that to Italy to mess up). I mean it was the same blueprint and about the same outcome, except the fighting came to their front door in WW II.

There were also Nazi U boat supply depots at El Ferrol, Vigo and Cadiz in Spain for some time, IIRC.