I have always found it strange that some regular gym goers view those that use gear for body building or asthetic purposes as "cheaters". I personally have never had an issue if a guy (or girl for that matter) used PEDs as long as it wasn't for sport competition where steroids were prohibited. Yet, I often run into guys that seem to think that anyone who uses gear is a POS. Is this jealousy? Misunderstanding and naivety? Don't they realize that all pro (non natty level) body builders are on gear?

I have considered it for myself. As much as I train and b/c my goal is aesthetics, I'd be crazy not to have looked into it. I don't b/c I have ulcerative colitis (in remission but higher cancer risk) and I just do not find the side effects worth it. But it would be nice to be able to be 220-230 and at the BF% I am at now (currently at 185 and 51 years old). What do most here think about the use of gear. Should it be legalized in the US? Have you considered it or do you cycle currently?

"If you ain't cheating, you cheating yourself!" (kidding)

I am on Test C or E (they are pretty much interchangeable). I do 200 mg a week - 1/2 cc Tues and 1/2 cc Saturday. (100mg each) Vial is 200 mg/ml.

I had low T ~ 200 ng/dl on my labs and my PCP mentioned it. But she wanted to do pellets they insert. You can't really fine tune or control that as well. Plus I got the impression they'd just bump me back up to the low end of normal. I wanted control and to be on the high end of normal.

I read Jay Campbell's book and some other online resources before I took the plunge. There was also a TED talk from a black doc that I found helpful. I found a local clinic for injections and it is geared for optimization, not just bumping you up a little. It has a doc and nurse (plus I know the owner). I think he makes most get the shots there, but I get my own vial and do my injections at home which is super convenient. I also know a gym bro who could get me some for less, but I prefer doc supervision. I actually started with the gym bro but moved on when I found the clinic - worth the money for the labs, blood dumps, occasional E blocker and supervision.

I do bloodwork every 3 months to make sure I'm where I need to be. Every 6 months at my PCP routine visit and in between at the clinic. I "pin" in my shoulder and thigh - rotate around so one area doesn't get too much abuse.

My total T runs about 850 ng/dl - reference range is 280 to 1100 so I'm on the upper end of "normal"
Free T runs about 17 ng/dl - reference range is 3.9 - 22.5
sometimes my Estradiol runs a little high, but you can take an estrogen blocker when it does. That is really powerful and you need to watch that. If you crash your E, it's no bueno.

You also have to watch your hematocrit - test is known to stimulate red blood cell production and can make your blood thick. You can donate blood, but I can never donate blood because I had hepatitis when I was a teenager. The clinic will do a blood dump (phlebotomy) when it gets too high and that takes me back down in range. I've had high blood pressure since my 20s and I've kept that close to normal too. I check that often.

I feel good and noticed immediate gainz in the gym when I started. But I'm not doing it for gainz, more for overall wellbeing. I was hitting the weights hard when I first started, then fell off for a while. I'm getting back into heavy lifting now, but have some "old guy" issues - e.g., bad rotator cuff and what not. Hit all my personal records when I was lifting heavy and just started.

I had thinning hair starting in my 20s and didn't notice anything out of the ordinary with that when I started T. No acne or mood changes. As I said, I feel better.

I'm in my mid 50s so I'm not worried about kids. Testes are probably smaller but they are still there - and who cares? You can take HCG to keep your testes up and running if you like. Younger guys do that so they can stay fertile.

I've been on it for years and have no plans to quit. Helps with the sexy time too.

Also, where is your T at now? That's the start of the analysis.

So I'll be 45 this year. I've built a pretty good physique over the course of 25 years of training without ever taking hormone supplementation. And I'm very proud of that. I actually enjoy the challenge of doing it naturally. It's like a cool puzzle that I can constantly work on, and I get to wear the results of my efforts. I have learned a tremendous amount about the essentials of hypertrophy training and nutrition to look the way I do, and it's paid untold dividends for me and continues to do so. And I understand perfectly how to do this for the rest of my life. And I have no idea what my T level is, and I honestly don't care.

But I would never judge someone for steroid use. It's truly a personal choice to go down that route, and I can respect that. But I will say this- I do think a lot of guys who decide to do steroids have not maximized their own abilities naturally to build muscle. You can build the same amount of muscle, but it just takes longer when you do it naturally. But the muscle that was built with steroids goes away when you stop. It appears to be insanely hard to keep up that level of musculature once the drug usage stops or the dose goes down.

So it's all a value judgment to me. How much is it worth to do steroids, and for what reason? Is the goal just large muscle growth? Because if you truly want to be big, then drugs are the only way to do it- but then the clock starts ticking as to all the potential downsides of longterm exposure to supratherapeutic androgens. You can only mitigate so many side effects for so long- because cardiomyopathy is a big ****ing deal with some of these guys who drop dead after longterm drug use.

On the other hand, there's definitely a way to do it smartly with maybe just a minor risk in longterm health. But for me, it's just not worth it.

Good points and I can't disagree with any of that. I should also mention that I know two guys who did stupid amounts of T - "blasts"/cycling - all that B.S. They are both dead now. I don't know if that is what killed them because they had other health problems - one was a bad drug/alcohol abuser and had congenital stuff, but until someone tells me otherwise, I will assume it was a factor in their deaths. I also know he didn't get his blood checked regularly. A doc "fired" him as a patient because he was blasting T. The other guy I didn't know as well, but he went from fat pudgy guy to incredible hulk in about six months. He had to be abusing T.

The gym bro I know was a blast/cycle guy too. He was a stripper in Vegas when he was younger. He'd go out for a week at a time and made stupid amounts of money. He was absolutely ripped/shredded but he had a heart attack few years ago as well. He's middle aged now and just does maintenance amounts.

I do it for maintenance for low T to get back to "normal" under doctor supervision. I only did that after years of trying other stuff. I had low T when I was running half marathons, biking 50 miles no problem, and eating clean. I had a BMI of around 23 - still had low T. I am also resigned that I may need to it for the rest of my life. If I get lazy later on, I may just do the pellets they put under your skin. But as I said above, I like to be in control and trying to optimize. Any problem and I'll come off it no problem if the docs tell me to.

If you are gonna blast super-human levels of T, good luck. That's not for me.

Here is the TED talk I was referring to earlier.

GeorgiAg said:

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Also, where is your T at now? That's the start of the analysis.

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For me, I range around 750-820. Higher end of normal range naturally. WOuldn't mind gooing to 1100. Just don't know if it would do much for me right now. BUT, I will be going the TRT route once I really need it per my doc. He is big into hormone replacement. My wife started hers about 6 or so months ago and it was a huge change. Lost weight pretty fast, more energy, better mental clarity (apparently brain fog is a thing with menopause) and, yes, very improved sex drive, And now that they have shown that hormonal replacement is not an increased risk for breast cancer, why wouldn't a woman do it when menopause hits.

ANd I find these posts extremely interesting about TRT. Now, I don't see TRT or medically prescribed TRT as "steroids". Steroids I am talking about are body builders and aesthetics focused trainees. Homonal replacement definitely crosses into the boundaries as it is test, but things like Tren are obviously higher level, more volatile (would that be a good way to phrase it?) in their usage.

Tex117 said:

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Meh. I don't care if someone uses gear. They still have to put in the work.

The only thing that does grind my gears is when they comment on my results versus theirs. (Or suggest a workout that a natural lifter would not be able to recover from). Its like...dude, eff off.

As for PEDs, man....Im no one's mother and I understand that they can be done in a way that's not totally destructive, but why an average person feels compelled to do that is a bit beyond my understanding. (Its usually covering up severe insecurities).

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I take this stance as well. Now, luckily it seems less guys are as unaware of the fact that nattys like us do have certain protocols vs. enhanced. Funny thing is sometimes enhanced actually need to be aware and NOT go too far in their training for a number of reasons. To let their connective tissues catch up with growing muscle, to be aware of different recovery needs etc. For instance, I can sometimes do a lot more volume than a bigger enhanced bro as he can do more weight and just gets more out of less volume, iirc. (correct me if I am wrong and obviously each individual had their own specific situations).

My gym is Destination in Allen, outside of Dallas. Lots of pros there. So, really, no one is the stereotypical cocky gear user. Why? A lot of others are on gear too and compete. So it a very friendly and encouraging environment. Hell, its what Planet Fitness tries to act like they are. But it makes for a very serious yet incredibly fun environment to train in. Music is rap/hard rock (unedited) and you never know who you might see within the bodybuilding world. The gym owner owns the GASP and Better Bodies brands and so they sponsor a lot of physique athletes. Posing room is always busy. It can be intimidating for some, but I have to say that once you get in there and used to the mass monsters and bikini competitors walking around you, you'll see there's nothing to be afraid of. Anyway, this isn't the place that a meat head can come in and act like he's all that. Which probably keeps those types away, lol.

TRT is not "PED."

Can one abuse testosterone? Of course. But I think that lots of men (and even some women) can benefit from TRT when its medically necessary.

I looked at it. And while im a smidge low, otherwise, everything is great. So, I've taken the position of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." But...when it breaks, I'll fix it.

Man I assumed you were in Austin lol. I believe that's the same gym that Hoosegow mentioned to me on the weightlifting thread. My son and I are probably going to stop by there sometime and check it out.

We've been going to what was the Texas Family Fitness chain. I'm in McKinnney and his mom lives in Plano and there were locations close to both of us. It wasn't bad for a commercial gym. And then a couple of months ago they got bought out by Planet Fitness. But, they actually added additional lifting platforms and it's surprisingly been an improvement. At some point though we may likely switch to a non-commercial gym, something more accommodating to powerlifting for him.

Yeah, I don't think I'd mess with it if I were high or even mid normal. I was shocked how low my T was. I definitely feel better getting back in range.

I know there is a bunch of other stuff out there, but I just wanna be slim, sorta muscular and healthy. The key is to Tren hard, eat clen anavar give up!

I'd have to do way more research to start all that other business. I'd also have to get back to optimal fitness to even consider it. I WAS in fantastic shape but got in some bad habits and got fat. But I'm back at it - down 25 lbs, lifting heavy and doing regular cardio now. Main thing was I got my diet right.

I accidentally got a vial last fall that was 300mg/ml and didn't notice the dosage difference. (Old guy - I need glasses and the writing on the vial was small, so I missed it.) So, I was doing 300mg/week for a bit. I discovered it by doing a lab - my total T was 1660 and free T was 46. I always make sure some time passes before I do blood work, so my actual T after pinning is probably a good bit higher. The half-life for Test C or E is about a week.

I backed off the higher dosage immediately - no adverse effects. I may have noticed more muscle, but that may just be in hindsight. But I don't want to risk any greater side effects so I'm gonna stay just at the high end of the normal range.

jtraggie99 said:

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For me personally, unless you are a professional athlete (i.e. you get paid), why do it? Just to lift more weight or look a certain way? I think PED's with younger guys is out of control these days. And social media has made it worse.

My son is 15 and will be lifting in his first powerlifting meet ever in a few weeks. He's been working out with me for almost 2 years now. He's made good progress from where he started (a skinny 140 lbs at almost 6', to now over 180), but he's got a long way to go for what he wants to accomplish. I tell him all the time, don't make the mistake of trying to take shortcuts. It's about consistent commitment. Slow and steady progress. He's constantly watching various guys online, many who are obviously enhanced. He knows it. Too many of these kids are impatient and want a shortcut. Many of them don't know what they are doing nor do they have the help that professionals do to make sure they aren't harming themselves long-term.

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100%. Hell, most guys on gear that I know would say the same thing. AND I agree. One really has NO BUSINESS messing around on gear if they are younger than 25. They aren't physically/mentally mature normally until 25 and its very unlikely that they have reached their full training potential before that. Obviously, once one wants to go the pro (non-natty pro) route, they HAVE to start cycling at some point. Genes only go so far. But that isn't most. That said, once you reach 25, have absolutely maxed out size-wise regarding your training, if you absolutely want tom be a mass monster or be at least a certain size, and this is your life, I could see taking them. But, there WILL be tradeoffs. Some people can handle those better than others. Again, not talking TRT.


And women cycle things too. Some are on gear that have less "manly" side effects and other PEDs. Hell, there might be more women taking PEDs then men outside of the competitive lifters. Finding out about all of that was very interesting and makes me look at certain more attractive gym focused girls a little different. Not in a bad way, just in a "oh! OK, that explains a few things" sort of way.

As long as you're not claiming to be not using when you are, or using them in competition when they're not allowed, no problem.

I do amateur level competition races and I don't know if they're explicitly banned in every competition I do but I imagine they are. They'd only test the top athletes anyways. I'm 48 and it is hard as hell to add muscle just on diet and training. You can do some, but there are limits. I have always been clean as I don't care to do more than what I can do without it. I don't fault anyone who uses PED as long as they're honest.

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But the muscle that was built with steroids goes away when you stop. It appears to be insanely hard to keep up that level of musculature once the drug usage stops or the dose goes down.

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This isn't totally true. Hence why one who competes in any sport after using gear and stopping (after a period of time) shouldn't be allowed to compete natty. I do not have the studies on hand but there is a theory that the number of extra muscle cell nuclei that increase during usage (again, I am messing this up and it is theory) dop not go away and one can keep a good amount of the gains that they received while roiding. Yes, they lose some and won't likely get as big but they will be bigger after gear then if they'd never used.

Agree with you on everything else. And for me, honestly, THE biggest reason I train is aesthetics, but lets be real, most people actually do not aspire to see the mass monster "look". Women, except for that few that chase body builders, really aren't attracted to huge jacked guys. Being athletic and cut is more than enough and maybe being able to speak and carry a conversation and maybe being able to pay bills and have a relatively good job etc. It's the bros that care. It's us, the guys at the gym who realize the work that goes into it and the genetics as well. That's who appreciates mass monsters the most, lol. Like, go look at Markus Ruhl. That is a God to a lot of us, but most women are like, ew! Hell, even the female physique competitors I know prefer my look to the giants. For me, it's having more muscle than I "need" and just being able to take my shirt off in public and not feel insecure. ie no dad bod. I don't really train shirtless much but my gym allows it and I would not feel one bit insecure shirtless compared to the bigger shredded guys training around me.

Ok so when did the term "gear" come into play?

That's a new one for me.

Took plenty of trips down to Mexico for "supplies" back in the day.

Scoopen Skwert said:

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Ok so when did the term "gear" come into play?

That's a new one for me.

Took plenty of trips down to Mexico for "supplies" back in the day.

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Not really sure. It's been called that around my gyms for a while. I always thought it was funny. "gear" like something in a rucksack, lol

jtraggie99 said:

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Man I assumed you were in Austin lol. I believe that's the same gym that Hoosegow mentioned to me on the weightlifting thread. My son and I are probably going to stop by there sometime and check it out.

We've been going to what was the Texas Family Fitness chain. I'm in McKinnney and his mom lives in Plano and there were locations close to both of us. It wasn't bad for a commercial gym. And then a couple of months ago they got bought out by Planet Fitness. But, they actually added additional lifting platforms and it's surprisingly been an improvement. At some point though we may likely switch to a non-commercial gym, something more accommodating to powerlifting for him.

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I used to work for a state rep in Austin when I started my account. Hence the "ol" not "al" in Capitol. Like, I was literally in the Capitol when I forgot my old account's password in '05 and started a new account, LOL. I was Gig'em96 or something like that.

Yes, the new Texas Family Fitness is near us on 380 in McKinney. And now it's Planet Fitness. BUT, I have noticed that PF seems to be branching out to be more inclusive of harder, my focused trainees. They used to have the "Lunk Alarm" thing where if you made someone feel uncomfortable while you trained, they could press it and get you kicked out. Worst thing ever implemented in the history of commercial gyms. How about worry about yourself and let others train for themselves. But it seems those aren't in the newer gyms that PF has purchased. I think they want to become bigger and to do that, this whole bending over backwards to make the most insecure feel "comfortable" won't fly. Hell, it is a gym, not a place one should feel "comfortable"!

jtraggie99 said:

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For me personally, unless you are a professional athlete (i.e. you get paid), why do it? Just to lift more weight or look a certain way? I think PED's with younger guys is out of control these days. And social media has made it worse.

My son is 15 and will be lifting in his first powerlifting meet ever in a few weeks. He's been working out with me for almost 2 years now. He's made good progress from where he started (a skinny 140 lbs at almost 6', to now over 180), but he's got a long way to go for what he wants to accomplish. I tell him all the time, don't make the mistake of trying to take shortcuts. It's about consistent commitment. Slow and steady progress. He's constantly watching various guys online, many who are obviously enhanced. He knows it. Too many of these kids are impatient and want a shortcut. Many of them don't know what they are doing nor do they have the help that professionals do to make sure they aren't harming themselves long-term.

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Have him watch Mike Israetel's videos on why you shouldn't use steroids. I know Mike makes a lot of inappropriate jokes but it shouldn't be anything a 15 year old hasn't heard and it will likely scare him away from gear forever. The fact that Mike is enhanced and speaks from his own side effects makes it hit home even more.

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TRT is not "PED."

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Agree. TRT can give one a boost and some growth, obviously. But, real steroids work. But with the side effects as well. Again, no solutions, only trade offs....

Capitol Ag said:

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jtraggie99 said:

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For me personally, unless you are a professional athlete (i.e. you get paid), why do it? Just to lift more weight or look a certain way? I think PED's with younger guys is out of control these days. And social media has made it worse.

My son is 15 and will be lifting in his first powerlifting meet ever in a few weeks. He's been working out with me for almost 2 years now. He's made good progress from where he started (a skinny 140 lbs at almost 6', to now over 180), but he's got a long way to go for what he wants to accomplish. I tell him all the time, don't make the mistake of trying to take shortcuts. It's about consistent commitment. Slow and steady progress. He's constantly watching various guys online, many who are obviously enhanced. He knows it. Too many of these kids are impatient and want a shortcut. Many of them don't know what they are doing nor do they have the help that professionals do to make sure they aren't harming themselves long-term.

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Have him watch Mike Israetel's videos on why you shouldn't use steroids. I know Mike makes a lot of inappropriate jokes but it shouldn't be anything a 15 year old hasn't heard and it will likely scare him away from gear forever. The fact that Mike is enhanced and speaks from his own side effects makes it hit home even more.

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He's familiar with Dr. Mike, thanks for passing that along.