I started up my 04 F150 the other night and got a loud rattle/clack that I thought for a little bit might be another exhaust manifold leak that has been so common on this truck. Mechanic says it appears slack in one of the timing chains broke the timing chain guide. The truck runs fine, but has been stumbling down a 100rpms at idle over the past couple thousand miles. Performance otherwise has notbeen affected. I actually thought to myself last week how well it waas running for 110k miles.

Anyone heard of this issue. I am looking at 13 hours of labor. I trust the mechanic, but that seem like alot of work to pull the front of the motor off.(but I have never worked on a modular motor before.)

How many miles do you have?

This is the first I've heard of a 3 Valve motor with a failed timing guide.

Its not really hard to do, its just very labor intensive. All of the FEAD must be removed, and then out of the way, IIRC both valve covers must be removed, and then the timing cover.

110k, maintained very well, but worked hard

I think there was a service message or something about the FEAD itself causing problems. Ill check.

TICKING AND/OR KNOCKING NOISE FROM ENGINE - 4.6L/5.4L 3V

Publication Date: February 22, 2006
FORD:
2005 Mustang
2004-2005 F-150
2005 Expedition, F-250, F-350 LINCOLN:
2005 Navigator
This article supersedes TSB 05-15-8 to update the Service Procedure.
ISSUE:

Some vehicles equipped with a 4.6L 3-valve or 5.4L 3-valve engine may exhibit a ticking and/or knocking noise after reaching normal operating temperature. The noise may be described as "ticks", "taps", "knocks", or "thumps". In some cases the noise may be a normal characteristic of these engines. In other cases the noise may require further investigation. Sorting out and defining the noise as reported by the customer is important to successfully diagnose and/or repair the condition.
ACTION:

Before starting diagnosis, it is critical to determine the specific engine noise the customer is concerned with. The customer should be interviewed to get their detailed perception and description of the noise, and to determine if the noise occurs at idle or above idle speed, and if the engine is cold, hot, or both. Attempt to duplicate the noise, and determine the source of the symptom. Refer to the following Service Procedure to help determine the source of the noise and if a repair is needed.
SERVICE PROCEDURE


NOTE: READ THIS SECTION IN ITS ENTIRETY BEFORE BEGINNING.

NOTE: THE 4.6L 3V AND 5.4L 3V ENGINES ARE INSTALLED IN SEVERAL VEHICLE PLATFORMS, WHICH MAY INFLUENCE THE INTENSITY OF NOISE DUE TO VEHICLE DIFFERENCES IN SOUND TRANSMISSION PATHS, HOOD AND BODY INSULATION PACKAGES, AND ROOT CAUSE OF THE COMPONENT(S) CAUSING THE NOISE.

PRE-CHECKS

1. Make sure you have a detailed description of the noise the customer is concerned with, including whether the noise is occurring at idle or above idle speed (does it disappear above 1200 RPM), and if the engine is cold, hot, or both when the noise is occurring. These engines generate a lot of "normal" noises, so it is critical to confirm the noise the customer is concerned with.
2. Determine what environment the customer is in when the noise is most noticeable to them (inside passenger compartment, next to building with/without the driver and/or passenger window open, or beside the wheel well). Validate by using your own perception.
3. Compare the noise generated with a new vehicle, if available, with an ENGINE build date of 3/30/2005 or later on Mustang and 4/18/2005 or later on F-150 to F-350, Expedition and Navigator vehicles. If the noise is the same, the noise is normal and would be a characteristic of the vehicle. Do not contiue with this TSB.
4. Diagnose noise when engine is at normal operating temperature (Oil at 160° F (71° C) or above). Verify oil temperature by using a diagnostic scan tool and monitoring the engine oil temperature (EOT) PID.
5. Check the type of oil filter installed on the vehicle. A dirty or clogged filter may cause a pressure drop. Look for aftermarket brands not recognized in the market or a production filter that has gone beyond the standard Ford recommended change interval.
6. Check for signs of oil brand used and viscosity (interview customer if needed). Motorcraft SAE 5W-20 Premium Synthetic Blend Motor Oil or equivalent is recommended. Once the above pre-checks are complete, check for sound level from the following components, in the order listed. Compare the sound from these components to the noise the customer is concerned with, to determine the source of the noise.

INJECTION / FUEL SYSTEM


Injector noise (ticking) is considered normal. Noise increases with RPM hot or cold and is recognized at the top of the engine.
VALVE TRAIN


Lash adjusters can make a ticking/tapping noise noticeable at any engine RPM/temperature and is audible through the wheel well or an open hood. However, with the hood down, lash adjuster noise can be heard as a light tapping noise through the wheel well and is considered normal.
Tracing this noise must be isolated to a cylinder bank. If one bank is louder than the other bank, focus the diagnostic to the loud bank. If both banks seem loud with the hood down, compare wheel well sound level to one another and work on the loudest bank.
Use a stethoscope on the top of the cam cover bolt heads to confirm which bank is affected. Move the probe from front to rear if necessary.
If isolated to a specific bank replace all the lifters, intake and exhaust, only on the affected cylinder bank. If the noise can not be isolated to a specific bank, then in the majority of situations this would not be a lifter related noise.
VARIABLE CAM TIMING


The 4.6L 3V and 5.4L 3V variable cam timing (VCT) feature may emit a light knock in normal operation and is audible only at idle speed, with a hot engine (gear selector in park/neutral). However, it may be masked by or mistaken for other noises generated from either injector firing or a malfunctioning valve train as described above. The noise does not affect performance or durability of the part.
VCT phasers may knock at hot idle. It may be heard inside the passenger compartment, or the wheel well area. Some light noise is normal. The engine may require a cold soak overnight for a full diagnosis to effectively be made at hot idle, particularly when a VCT phaser is suspected. The knock is not prevalent at cold temperature.
To test for VCT noise:

1. Place the transmission in park or neutral.
2. Bring engine oil temperature to 160° F (71° C) or above as indicated by the scan tool "EOT" PID.
3. Allow engine to idle, and determine if noise is noticeable.
4. Set engine speed to over 1200 RPM (if noise is a VCT knock, the noise should disappear).
5. Return engine speed to idle (verify knock returns). If the noise intensity is more than a lightly audible knock at hot idle under 1200 RPM at engine operating temperature, replace the cam phaser using the camshaft "In-Vehicle Repair" procedure found in the Workshop Manual. If the noise is only a lightly audible knock at hot idle under 1200 RPM, do not attempt to repair this normal engine noise.

STARTUP RATTLE


Some 2004 F150 and 2005 F150, Expedition, Navigator, Super Duty, and Mustang vehicles may have a rattle on startup that lasts 1 to 3 seconds. If initial pre-checks have been completed and the noise sounds like it is coming from the front of the engine, replace the VCT phaser (3R2Z-6A257-DA kit). If the engine continues to make the rattle noise after the initial startup, check for other possible areas per the Workshop Manual Engine System - General Information, Symptom Chart for Engine Noise.

early 3v and some 2vs had a problem with the gasket between the tensioner and the block. The oil pressure would bleed off causing the tensioner to back off.however, there are alot of places on a modular that can make a tapping noise.

yeah, fixer?! why don't you say that to my face!

My regular old 5.4 has a pronounced knock when you fire it up first thing in the morning. I fix it by turning up the radio for 30 seconds.

Replacing the timing chains and tensioners did not resolve the issue. The noise does not go away at higher RPM and engine temp does not affect it. They think it might be a lifter.

Again, no effects on performance at all. The noise did not happen gradually, it started when I started it up one night. It is for sure more pronounced on the rear pass. side of the motor.

And you are right, in all my investigations, apparently the 3v makes all sorts of noises.

I picked it up and am driving it to Big Bend tomorrow. Taking it back to them or Varsity on Monday.

JB,

If you want to investigate things yourself, try getting a mechanic's stethoscope and poke around the engine when you hear the noise. If it is noticeably louder in the valve cover versus other parts of the engine, then a lifter/lash adjuster might have collapsed.

I actually did do this at the shop the other night. The noise seems to be coming from the rear of pass. side cam cover. A failed lash adjuster was also mentioned.

I hope they gave you a break on the repair since it did not correct the issue.

I have not paid anything yet.

I don't know how skilled you are JB but taking off the cam cover on the pass side isn't too hard. The gasket is re-usable.

If you locate a collapsed lifter/lash adjuster, then they aren't hard to replace either.

Well here is the latest.

I got the truck back last Tuesday with the same problem that it had before taking it in. A loud ticking noise from the passenger side bank of the motor. I needed the truck to go on a camping trip to Big Bend. I did not pay the shop as they told me to either get back with them when I got back or take it to get a second opionion. They seemed pretty stumped when I left, so I took it to Varsity Monday morning.

The mechanics at Ford have determined that the lifters need to be replaced. They also mentioned a failed cam follower, which in turn damaged the cam. They recommend replacing all lifters, followers, cams, and cam phasers on both sides to the tune of $2300 or so. The debate on if I should replace both sides is not what I am concerned with nor is the high dealer price. What I am concerned with now is what I owe the independent shop that replaced the timing chain. Two seperate Ford dealers have said they can not remember ever replacing a timing chain set on a 5.4 3v.

The shop claims that the timing chain did have slack in it and that a tensioner had failed. They let me feel both old timing tensioners after they had been pulled, and honestly, they felt to have the same resistance to me.

If what Varsity said is true, the damage should have been seen as soon as the shop pulled the valve cover.

I do not want to cut ties with this shop as I am friends with all the mechanics as I worked in auto parts in college, but I really do not feel as though I owe them for unnecessary work. I am willing to pay their cost on the parts, which would be only around $300 or so. I talked to them today and told them I took it to the dealer and he seemed surprised and wanted me to pay over the phone then. He did not give me a number, but I told them that I would talk to them again once I got the truck back from the dealer (should be tomorrow afternoon).

What would you do?

I dont know. I dont know if you have any choice. I guess you probably should have had a second opinion before anyone did any work. Since they did the work, arent you obligated to pay for it?

Get a used 3 Valve head?

How much is a complete reman 5.4?

They shop said they found the problem. THey replaced the timing chains etc. It did not fix the problem. I don't think I am obligated to pay (at least in full) for them fixing a part that was not broken(whether they thought it was or not).

What if I took it in for a engine tick, and they fixed the rear wheel bearing? "Well we didnt fix what you wanted fixed, but this bearing was bad so we replaced it for you, so go ahead and pay us for that"

I dunno, maybe I am wrong here, but paying that 2300 at Varisty only to turn around and pay the shop another 13 hours labor seems like I am getting hosed. I think the shop misdiagnosed the problem, replaced some parts that they truly thought were bad, and gave it back to me stumped. They started to give me crap about running 10x30 instead of 5w20 too.

A reman motor would be substantially more expensive from my research.

Since they have not given me a number yet, I really can not be pissed yet, but I am preparing to be.