Let's not make this a frat/anti-frat bash fest, but there's an article in the Wall Street Journal that has a lot of university people talking and I think it's worth a rational discussion here.

Before we go too far, read the article (it's short) on the Wall Street Journal:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704658704576275152354071470.html

Here's the Cliff notes ... In 1984, a young freshman girl at UVA got slipped a mickey in her drink at a frat house and many bad things ensued. 20 years later, the fraternity brother who led the assault was going through AA, where they encourage people to make up to everyone they've done wrong to over the years, especially while drunk. He wrote a letter to her, apologizing for everything. She took that as a confession, and had him successfully prosecuted and put in jail.

The author of the WSJ article (different from the girl assaulted) kinda hurts her point, I think, when she says she was so intimidated by the sight of frat houses at Virginia, she had to drop out mid-semester her first term there. That point was widely ridiculed in the comments section. She goes on to make her main point, which is that universities would be much better without fraternities and their misogynistic, hedonistic, Bacchanalian cultures.

What say ye, BCS? Would getting rid of frats do A&M any good?

you would probably have more success with this troll on the general board

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He wrote a letter to her, apologizing for everything. She took that as a confession, and had him successfully prosecuted and put in jail.

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That's awesome. And yes, A&M would be better without frats. Service organizations are where it's at.

I've always kind of felt frat and sororities didn't fit the Aggie "thing." It just seems un Aggie-ish. But, people get assaulted at all kinds of get togethers, greek sponsored or not...that has to do with booze and attitude.

Having said all that, I owe my very existence to the greek system, as my parents met at a frat kegger. And they have been married 45+ years. Sooo..that's just a thought.

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you would probably have more success with this troll on the general board

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LOL, you exceeded my expectations, agncs, by calling troll on the first reply. Allow me to defend the post ...

It's a major newspaper article. It's being discussed at universities around the country. It's a serious question posed by the digerati. And finally, I prefaced with a plea for this not to turn into a bashfest (which trolls are usually looking for, and I am not).

I thought about putting it on the general, but really was interested in what the local adults had to say, and more of them seem to hang out here than there.

/defense against gratuitous troll accusation

ETA: I wouldn't be surprised if someone copied/linked to this discussion over there anyway ...

[This message has been edited by techno-ag (edited 4/25/2011 5:16p).]

This has nothing to do with fraternities/sororities or whatever. The only thing that is in common is booze. Outlaw booze, you fix the problem. Otherwise, if you are worried, stay away from those types of situations to protect yourself. I'm not standing up for the person who perpetrated the crime, but if she would have been at her church (assuming it wasn't a Catholic church) or in her dorm, she probably would have been OK.

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Outlaw booze, you fix the problem

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troll.


And I've always said frats have no place at A&M.

I agree with you mostly csrealist. But I would assume a fellow realist would be able to see that outlawing alcohol would not help the problem at all. Two underage students at A&M were treated for alcohol poisening just the other day. If you are worried about that situation happening don't put your self in a place that it could happen.

csUNrealist to the rescue. I'm not a frat supporter but your post is unreal.

This is the only part I would remotely agree with:

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if you are worried, stay away from those types of situations to protect yourself

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[This message has been edited by Yale (edited 4/25/2011 5:27p).]

I attended a school where Greeks were a big thing, much more so than A&M. I was always of the opinion that A&M IS it's own fraternity.

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I attended a school where Greeks were a big thing, much more so than A&M. I was always of the opinion that A&M IS it's own fraternity.

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And it's the only fraternity that should exist.

csrealist- what do you mean "assuming it wasnt a catholic church"??

papists drink wine.
wine contains alcohol.

In the Summer of 1970 I started graduate school at A&M and my mom (Alpha Delta Pi) made one last pitch to me, like someone offering you a seat on the last lifeboat leaving the Titanic. National fraternities were just starting at A&M and my maternal grandfather and his brothers were all Kappa Sigs. Me. Mr. brown rice eating, grape boycotting me with my collection of Jimi Hendrix 8 track tapes. Of course, it would have been an interesting culture clash if I'd been stupid enough to do it. Here I am four decades later loathing racism and elitism even more (but I do eat grapes) and so you know my answer would be a resounding BAN THEM.

I say "let the market decide." Students at A&M generally shun frats. However, for the folks that enjoy greek life, let them be.

the problem with that benny, is that as a "student organization" they receive funding through the MSC student org. funds that all students pay into.
So they are being subsidized by other students.

Any and all student organizations associated with a university must be provided with a set of parameters within which they must operate or face consequences. Oversight cannot be nod/wink cursory slap, but real enforcement and real punishment in order to insure they are generally positive experiences for the students.

Many many people make poor decisions, especially 18 year olds, if enforcement from the university is harsh enough the leadership of these organizations should value the future of that organization over an individual with poor decision making capabilities, and self enforce. If an organization's leadership cannot do that then the org and it's leadership can hit the road. That goes for frats, sororities, the corps, and any other group.

What is described in that article appears to be a systemmatic breakdown from the university student affairs on down through the entire organization of that fraternity, it's national chapter, and the young men they recruited with an apparent lack of moral value and conscience.

Scruffy - to the extent that you are correct re: all student organizations receive subsidies from the general student population, I think in an ideal world no student organizations should be subsidized.

Be that as it may, I don't think there is any particular reason to pick on frats just because some of their members may on occasion act like butts or worse.

Hey, if we can tolerate Young Democrats on campus, surely we can tolerate some frats.

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What is described in that article appears to be a systemmatic breakdown from the university student affairs on down through the entire organization of that fraternity, it's national chapter, and the young men they recruited with an apparent lack of moral value and conscience.

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Why stop at student affairs at UVa but go up the chain to the national chapter of the frat? The breakdown extends to the rest of the campus and local community culture, if the article's claims that it was widely known that to go upstairs at any frat was to invite assault.

Am I wrong to think that this kind of crime could have been deterred by instilling in frat row the thought that the attractive young woman at your party might be an undercover cop?

Although I'm not interested in frats myself, I don't follow the logic that goes from a crime in Va in 1984 demanding a ban on frats today. I'd hate to see that logic applied to football.

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you are correct re: all student organizations receive subsidies from the general student population, I think in an ideal world no student organizations should be subsidized.

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I agree, however...The other student groups (to the best of my knowledge) don't also have mandatory dues that one must pay to be a member.
I just spoke with my neighbor who is in the singing cadets. Other than a deposit on their uniforms there is no fee/dues they must pay to be a part.
GLBTA, FLO's etc. do not make people pay to be a part of their group. Frats make money off their members. Hence the Saying "Rent a friend, Join a Frat".

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Hey, if we can tolerate Young Democrats on campus, surely we can tolerate some frats.

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Benny, I don't know you, but I like you!



Vote Yes on recall!

Remember Wellborn! Remember Weingarten!

Wasn't in a frat when in school.

Now- if you look at the intent of the WSJ article, that could have happen at any social party.

Frats are just national social groups. If you banned them, there would still be social groups or clubs that would emerge.


Feats have their place and national networking is one of them.

I'm Old Army, so I don't care for frats.

That's all the food I'll give the Troll.

I find this to be a bit funny, because I could not possibly care less about fraternities or sororities. I wasn't a member of one, but I'm not definitionally hostile to them, either.

Why ban them? Really, why? What kind of "conservative" would support such a top-down, bureaucrat-imposed ban? Amazing.

Let the market decide, I say. The market decides what percentage of students choose to enlist in the Corps -- and that's wonderful. Let the same market decide what percent enlists in fraternities and sororitites.

no and you are insane. Nobody listens to techno anymore.

[This message has been edited by RockyMountainAg (edited 4/25/2011 7:56p).]

frats are just like any other student organization out there.

want to ban all greek letter groups? what about service fraternities?

want to band all social groups similar to frats? what about ol ags, one army, and aggie mens club?

I thought this commenter had a most cogent statement:

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The author states that "Over a quarter of sexual-assault victims who were incapacitated reported that the assailant was a fraternity member." I would guess that this number represents the same percentage of male students that join fraternities (i.e., 25% of the male student population is in fraternities). No one believes that sexual assaults should be tolerated, but this article doesn't illustrate a correlation between fraternities and a heightened level of improper behavior. As we all know, unfortunately, the awful event that Ms. Securro experienced occurs in every sector of society - they are not limited to fraternity parties.
Universities may decide to remove fraternities from campus one day, but it will take more than this lawsuit to achieve it. Groups of college age men have and will always and congregate in groups, either on campus or off. Just look at the large number of "off campus" fraternities that continue to thrive. In my opinion removing these groups from the watchful eyes of university administrators will only increase the chances of high risk behavior.

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It's a great point. On the one hand, we want to keep a watchful eye on wayward youth, and encourage them to act responsibly while attending university.

But, if you ban frats, they'll simply move off campus, and have even less influence from the university higher-ups.

It always boils down to the law of unintended consequences ...

I say let 'em thrive, and fight the Title IX lawsuits against frats.

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all student organizations receive subsidies from the general student population

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I can’t speak for the frats’ case, but I know for a fact that not all student organizations receive subsidies from student fees that the University collects. The student organizations with which I am familar have other means of funding themselves. Sometimes it is member dues. Sometimes it is donations directly to the organization. Sometimes academic departments help out from donations they have received.

(Thank you departments and former students for making this possible.)

Just a point of fact.

all student organizations receive access to resources that are funded by student fees...so you could say that most all are funded, in some part, by student fees.

an example is the SOFC. all orgs have "checking" accounts through the SOFC, which is funded through student fees.

How many of you that responded read the article?

It was on the WSJ most emailed article list this weekend, which shocked me. In the print issue it was in a discreet location. That is the only thing that prompted my reading it yesterday.

While there is some whining, as noted in the op, there is also some seemingly factual information.

My hope is the article results in some re-evaluation of current cultural norms and perhaps some serious father daughter talks (which, in my opinion should take place anyway) about the realities of entering into the realm of raging, inebriated male hormones.

I was a student here before there were frats and dated guys in the Corp. I was never offered drinks with mickeys, nor felt myself in danger - that I couldn't knock back from a single young buck and never felt myself at risk for a gang rape.... but my dad had that serious talk with me.

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Nobody listens to techno anymore.

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LOL. Like anyone ever did.

/self deprecation.

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Frats are just national social groups. If you banned them, there would still be social groups or clubs that would emerge.

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Best point 75 has ever made on this board.

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all student organizations receive access to resources that are funded by student fees...so you could say that most all are funded, in some part, by student fees.

an example is the SOFC. all orgs have "checking" accounts through the SOFC, which is funded through student fees.

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(sigh) Yes, and all student organizations use rooms that are in buildings paid for by taxpayers, so we can extend the logic and say every Texas citizen pays for student organizations. You and I financially support the frats. The horror, the horror…

Thought experiment: could a student group who has its own funding try to use its own “checking account”, removing itself from the SOFC system, and thereby cost student fees nothing? Umm, no.

If the University mandates all student organizations to use SOFC, and funds SOFC with student fees, don’t blame the student organizations for that use of student fees.

(Sorry if I sound snarky. Past frustrations with SOFC…)

[This message has been edited by lost my dog (edited 4/25/2011 11:38p).]

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Frats are just national social groups. If you banned them, there would still be social groups or clubs that would emerge.

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Exactly my point. As long as there are young adults and booze, things like this will happen. It doesn't matter if the house has numbers or greek letters over it's door. Some of you folks are so blind by ignorance, it's pathetic.

BTW, I'm all for legalizing all drugs since tobacco and EtOH are already legal. Tax it and get the criminal element out of it. Let some American make a profit from it rather than some Mexican, Colombian or Afghani...

Scruffy, that wasn't what I was talking about, but good save. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by csrealist (edited 4/25/2011 11:44p).]

Yes.

Next question.