All... have some questions around the above topic and this is the knowledge repository for all things firearms related. I have a couple dumb questions... very dumb. I know my way around AR's, but not the legalities as much on pistol builds and short barrels. So as Jeremy Irons said in Margin Call, speak as you might to a small child, or a golden retriever.

I have a couple of lowers, and interested in putting a <16" barrel on one of them. I'm curious the pros and cons of converting it into a pistol vs just going the tax stamp route and putting a short barrel on it with a true stock (rifle). So if anyone has any thoughts there, I'd appreciate it. And if those two options / ideas don't merit a pro/con discussion because they're really two distinctly different things, I'd be curious on that take as well.

In terms of building into a pistol... what are the steps there? I can't use a collapsible stock and need to use a brace, that I'm aware of. What other physical restrictions are there? And are there any forms / taxes needed to do the build? I've read some about the lower can't have been part of a rifle in its life prior to pistol build. Is this correct? I just need a simple bullet point list on what it takes to build an AR lower into a pistol build and what my restrictions are.

In terms of an SBR... I need to complete the form, pay the tax and wait for approval. Is that it?

Again.... very dumb questions for most of you to answer, but waters I haven't navigated prior to now. And if there's a website the more succinctly and simply answers these questions, feel free to point me there instead. Thanks!

Advantage for pistol is you do not have to register it with the ATF and pay a $200 tax. Also if travelling out of state, you technically are supposed to notify the state you are traveling to that you are traveling with an NFA item.

Only advantage for SBR is having a stock.

SBA4 Brace is just as stable as most stocks.

https://www.brownells.com/gun-parts/handgun-parts/handgun-grips-parts/sba4-pistol-stabilizing-brace/

JeremiahJohnson said:

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Only advantage for SBR is having a stock.

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Also a vertical grip.

with the SBR, you don't have to worry about the constant rule change games the ATF keeps playing.

That is true. Can get a large handstop, but vertical grip is better.

RogueAg said:

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In terms of building into a pistol... what are the steps there? I can't use a collapsible stock and need to use a brace, that I'm aware of. What other physical restrictions are there? And are there any forms / taxes needed to do the build? I've read some about the lower can't have been part of a rifle in its life prior to pistol build. Is this correct? I just need a simple bullet point list on what it takes to build an AR lower into a pistol build and what my restrictions are.

In terms of an SBR... I need to complete the form, pay the tax and wait for approval. Is that it?

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For building a pistol, there are no forms to fill out or tax to be paid. Just build your pistol, and make sure that you do not use a rifle stock. Also you are correct in that you cannot use a lower receiver that was previously registered as an NFA SBR, unless you are the one who previously registered it, in which case you can convert between a pistol and SBR at will, even though it forever remains an SBR.

As for the process for building an SBR (barrel shorter than 16" using rifle stock), you complete an ATF Form 1, pay the $200 tax, submit your fingerprints when prompted, and wait for approval before proceeding with your build. Then you must engrave your lower receiver with your name (if filing as individual) or your trust name (if filing under a trust), city and state, using the specific ATF requirements for font height and engraving depth.

As stated, if you want to make absolutely certain you don't become an instant felon due to ATF potentially changing the rules on a whim, go the SBR route, which then allows you to use a better more comfortable stock as opposed to a silly brace.

Or, if you don't mind your AR being only a couple inches longer and would prefer to avoid the hassles, just build it with a 16" barrel. Or, you could technically build it with a shorter than 16" barrel if you pin and weld a flash hider/brake on the end so it's a permanent part of the barrel, as long as it extends the barrel to at least 16".

Thank you all for the quick responses. Even my golden retriever brain was able to comprehend.

One other question just for clarity, you mentioned that I cannot use a lower receiver from a previously registered NFA SBR to build a pistol. But... can I use a lower receiver from a previously built non-NFA (16+" barreled) rifle to build a pistol? Just want to be sure on that.

Leaning towards SBR, despite the extra hassles, just so I don't have to deal with potential legal issues in the future. And a stock is preferred over a brace, for comfort as well as options available.

Thanks again.

Its a weird area on using a rifle lower for a pistol. Probably easier to start with a base lower or leave it separate until you get the stamp back.

Build a pistol and send in the paper work for your SBR. When you get it in you can put on the stock. That way you can use it during the time you are waiting.

Tim Kennedy is a little nuts, but his is a decent breakdown.

RogueAg said:

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One other question just for clarity, you mentioned that I cannot use a lower receiver from a previously registered NFA SBR to build a pistol. But... can I use a lower receiver from a previously built non-NFA (16+" barreled) rifle to build a pistol?

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Correct. As long as it stays out of the NFA realm, never combining parts that classify the gun as a NFA item, you can switch out parts at will to your heart's content.

Ok I figured but didn't want to assume.

I have one last question... then I'll stop boring the board with my ignorance. If I go the SBR route, I'll probably generate a (gun) trust rather than fill out form 1 as an individual. There's tons of 'online' sites that will generate a gun trust for you for low cost. Are any of these recommended over the others? Or is this not a recommended way to have your trust setup?

Thanks everyone.

Theres a lawyer in Austin that specifically deals with gun trusts and has a website that leads you all the way thru it. Someone here can share that web address but I do know hes really really good at it. You can also go the other routes as well but Im not a lawyer and you might have specific needs a lawyer can help with. Good luck. Its not that bad.

RogueAg said:

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Ok I figured but didn't want to assume.

I have one last question... then I'll stop boring the board with my ignorance. If I go the SBR route, I'll probably generate a (gun) trust rather than fill out form 1 as an individual. There's tons of 'online' sites that will generate a gun trust for you for low cost. Are any of these recommended over the others? Or is this not a recommended way to have your trust setup?

Thanks everyone.

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guntrustguru.com is a good one to use.

rogue. If you are located in N. Dallas area I have an SBA3 brace in my parts bin if you want it for cheap.

if you go SBR, build up as a pistol now and use the SBA3 brace so you can enjoy it while the paperwork/stamp is processing so you can SBR and put on a stock.

I have not felt the need to SBR my two pistols using SBA braces.

AvsB I'm interested in the brace and in Las Colinas/Carrollton area

JeremiahJohnson said:

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Only advantage for SBR is having a stock.

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And it is enough of an advantage that I've paid the insane, stupid, unconstitutional, bull**** tax multiple times.

A braced pistol you can take across state lines without paperwork and dont have to pay a bs tax on is great, dont get me wrong.

But braces arent stocks. They're crappy at being stocks. If you're going to shoot it a lot, an actual stock is 100% a worthwhile upgrade.

F the nfa

100% true- SBA4 is about as close to a stock you can get for pistol brace but still not a stock.

I should have said best advantage and not only

Don't beat around the bush, Bender, tell us how you really feel.

malenurse said:

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Don't beat around the bush, Bender, tell us how you really feel.

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Okay.

The only thing dumber than our gun laws are people who want more of them.

Our gun laws are the dumbest and most 'tarded laws on the books.

I have both. SBR is preferred, but I had to wait and pay the stupid tax, etc. Built the pistol lower with an SBA4 5 position adjustable brace and it shoots almost exactly like a rifle IMO.

Granted, I've not gone and put 500+ rounds at a time through it so at some point I'm sure there is a noticeable difference between the brace and a true stock. But for a truck gun, the brace works just fine and I don't have to deal with the NFA nazi bullsht either. I put a short linear comp on it to keep the length down and at least direct as much of the report away from me as possible. Still loud AF, but any short barreled rifle round is going to be.

don't be a heaven and put a can on that B.

Furlock Bones said:

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don't be a heaven and put a can on that B.

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I'm normally a fan of cans, but for this application I want something loud. Noise is a good offensive weapon at times, and if I'm ever reaching for this gun, I want not only firepower, but lots of really loud noise as well.

sounds like what you really need is an ol woodie Remington 870. nothing deters criminals more than the sound of racking the slide on an ol' shotty.

223 SBR with a can is still loud as **** at the muzzle. Especially indoors. Helps at the shooters ear though.

schmellba99 said:

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Furlock Bones said:

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don't be a heaven and put a can on that B.

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I'm normally a fan of cans, but for this application I want something loud. Noise is a good offensive weapon at times, and if I'm ever reaching for this gun, I want not only firepower, but lots of really loud noise as well.

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Then do what I do. My home defense weapon has a pair of Walkers draped over them so I can grab both at the same time (and pray it doesn't slow me down too much). My old ears are so bad already, I know one shot with my AR pistol and my ears would be gone and that's not good. Besides, I can turn up the volume on the Walkers and hear a cricket fart. Having ALL your senses in a situation like that is a good thing.

In that type of situation, I'm not wasting time fumbling with ear muff and other stuff int he dark. I'm realistic - there will be enough going on as it is without unecessary distractions.

JeremiahJohnson said:

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223 SBR with a can is still loud as **** at the muzzle. Especially indoors. Helps at the shooters ear though.

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Yep on the shooters ear. Put several through my suppressed SBR over the weekend, but it was outdoors dispatching coons.

I've popped off a suppressed .22 subsonic indoors before and it's way louder than you think. Doesn't matter much what it is - indoors is going to be loud to really really loud.

schmellba99 said:

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In that type of situation, I'm not wasting time fumbling with ear muff and other stuff int he dark. I'm realistic - there will be enough going on as it is without unecessary distractions.

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It takes 1 second to put on my muffs when reaching for my gun. I want to hear what's going on if there's a shot. Just practice it.

JeremiahJohnson said:

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Advantage for pistol is you do not have to register it with the ATF and pay a $200 tax. Also if travelling out of state, you technically are supposed to notify the state you are traveling to that you are traveling with an NFA item.

Only advantage for SBR is having a stock.

SBA4 Brace is just as stable as most stocks.

https://www.brownells.com/gun-parts/handgun-parts/handgun-grips-parts/sba4-pistol-stabilizing-brace/

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I thought, you needed written notification to the ATF if traveling out of state?

I believe that a VERTICAL forward grip makes it an SBR regardless of the Brace/Buttstock configuration.

Also I believe there is an Overall length that it must be UNDER to still be considered a pistol.

Now what's happened since the new ATF regulations were shot down, and how that impacts any of their chicken rules may make those moot points.

I believe there are a few other items which may lead to your intent which the ATF had indicated might make it more of a rifle than a pistol. For instance a 4x20 scope. Some would think the intent is more in lines of where you would use a rifle vs a pistol. But as recent incidents have shown, if they want you, they will find a way to get you.

Theoretically the other issue (which I don't know the precise answer too) is "Who Gets to Possess the Item" while waiting on the Tax Stamp. If you purchase 1 it is NOT supposed to be transferred to the individual until the Tax Stamp is issued. If you build it, who get to possess it/shoot it in the interim?

I have 2 Pistols, 5.56 & a 300 BO. I can tell you the 300 BO is just as accurate at 100 yards as the 16" 300BO that I also have. Only difference is the Point of Impact is about 1/2" low for the pistol. t least with 150gr projectiles.

74AnimalA said:

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I believe that a VERTICAL forward grip makes it an SBR regardless of the Brace/Buttstock configuration.

Also I believe there is an Overall length that it must be UNDER to still be considered a pistol.

I believe there are a few other items which may lead to your intent which the ATF had indicated might make it more of a rifle than a pistol. For instance a 4x20 scope.

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To your first point about the vertical fore grip, technically, no, adding it to a pistol does not make it an SBR, it makes it an AOW. Still an NFA item so the net legal effect is the same, it's just not classified as an SBR if it still doesn't have a rifle stock.

To your second point, ATF's definition of a pistol is that it was designed to be fired from one hand. There is no barrel length criteria except for the fact that a barrel shorter than 16" doesn't automatically relegate the gun as an SBR if it doesn't also have a buttstock designed to be fired from the shoulder. Since "pistols" are not NFA items regardless of barrel length, it makes no difference anyway. You can have as long a barrel as you want, it doesn't matter. "Pistol" just means it was designed to be able to fire it with one hand and not against the shoulder.

On your 3rd point, mounting a scope to a pistol does not change its legal classification. Guns like the Remington XP100, Thompson Contender, and other pistols using rifle actions as well as hunting revolvers have had scopes mounted to them for decades with no legal issues. Some scope manufacturers offer special long eye relief scopes for this very purpose.

schmellba99 said:

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Furlock Bones said:

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don't be a heaven and put a can on that B.

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I'm normally a fan of cans, but for this application I want something loud. Noise is a good offensive weapon at times, and if I'm ever reaching for this gun, I want not only firepower, but lots of really loud noise as well.

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I assume this is a joke/you plan on signaling rescuers in a remote area? (Suppressed standard velocity 223/especially indoors will still be loud enough to cause hearing damage, I think.)

From what I have read most quality 5.56 cans drop the decibels to somewhere in the 132-142 decibel range. Still plenty loud. Just takes the bite out of the blast and percussion.

Now me being a lefty, I get port pop and gas face more than you right handers. I always will wear hearing protection regardless of situation.

74AnimalA said:

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JeremiahJohnson said:

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Advantage for pistol is you do not have to register it with the ATF and pay a $200 tax. Also if travelling out of state, you technically are supposed to notify the state you are traveling to that you are traveling with an NFA item.

Only advantage for SBR is having a stock.

SBA4 Brace is just as stable as most stocks.

https://www.brownells.com/gun-parts/handgun-parts/handgun-grips-parts/sba4-pistol-stabilizing-brace/

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Theoretically the other issue (which I don't know the precise answer too) is "Who Gets to Possess the Item" while waiting on the Tax Stamp. If you purchase 1 it is NOT supposed to be transferred to the individual until the Tax Stamp is issued. If you build it, who get to possess it/shoot it in the interim?

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My intent is to build an SBR as opposed to purchase one. My understanding of the 'rules' on this is.... in regards to your last question here.... NO ONE gets to possess it or shoot it in the interim while you're waiting on the stamp.

If building a SBR, I can purchase all the parts to it... I just cannot assemble them into a complete rifle until I receive my stamp. Or more simply put, I can have a complete AR lower, and a complete AR SBR upper, but I can't attach the upper to the lower until I get the stamp. Therefore I don't technically have possession of a complete SBR. Which also means obviously that no one could shoot it either of course.

That's just my understanding. Now... someone recommended earlier I believe to keep the lower and upper separated, to the point of having one of the components at another location entirely, to eliminate the temptation to put them together before receiving the stamp. I 'm not worried about the "temptation" to do so, but I do wonder if simply having both in my house, even if separated, is potentially risky for other legal reasons. I dunno.

Quote:

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If building a SBR, I can purchase all the parts to it... I just cannot assemble them into a complete rifle until I receive my stamp. Or more simply put, I can have a complete AR lower, and a complete AR SBR upper, but I can't attach the upper to the lower until I get the stamp. Therefore I don't technically have possession of a complete SBR. Which also means obviously that no one could shoot it either of course.

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you could build it as as a pistol now. Enjoy, train, etc with it while forms and $200 permission slip are OK'd by the ATF then just throw a stock on it once you are all cleared for an SBR.

Has anyone mentioned the engraving that needs to be done to an SBR lower receiver yet?

1. buy/build a pistol
2. file the form 1
3. get lower engraved.
4. When you get stamp back put stock on.

Can still shoot with brace as pistol while waiting for stamp

Rockdoc said:

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schmellba99 said:

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In that type of situation, I'm not wasting time fumbling with ear muff and other stuff int he dark. I'm realistic - there will be enough going on as it is without unecessary distractions.

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It takes 1 second to put on my muffs when reaching for my gun. I want to hear what's going on if there's a shot. Just practice it.

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Okey doney