Disclosure: this is buz coming from me speaking with a manufacturer, Shot Show this past week, and some FB groups I'm on. All seem to corroborate so I guess it's legit.

Things aren't looking good for the 8.6blk. It was hoped that SAAMI would be voting this week on its approval. Didn't go well. Hornady isn't backing it as it stands, supposedly over the 1:3 twist. Q/Kevin Brittingham is being blamed for the "ridiculous" twists rate and overhyped TP. This in addition to the legal concerns from standard/bonded bullets not holding up to the high twist rate. Add in the fact that most people will be running a can that would be damaged. Then there is the fact that current manufacturers are having to make different loads based on barrel length (12", 16", etc) and the confusion rises.

A 1:5 or 1:6.5 is being suggested. My buddy at Gorilla confirms they are having better accuracy with slowing the twist. While we can get MOAs near 1.5@100 "sometimes" (anyone telling you better is lying), the 1:3 twist is just plain unreliable in accuracy. They (and I) have experienced random flyers no matter what the load. Sometimes over a foot away. This is the first round that I've ever doped out spin drift starting at just over 200 yards (but I know this isn't really designed to be shooting over 200).

The 8.6 at 1:3 just isn't known for its accuracy, despite the punch.

Hornady is definitely out as it stands but Kevin B is in talks with Nosler.

Without either of their backing, it will either need to be resubmitted (they say they could revisit again in the summer and vote) with a slower twist or this will remain a boutique cartridge for hand loaders. I have a feeling there's plenty of hog hunters who will be pushing to not let this die.

I'll try to follow up.

I don't ever remember seeing a twist rate on a SAAMI chamber or case dwg.

I would imagine because until now, twists were much slower and the only concern of their rate was affecting accuracy. I think this is more about safety/damage.

It was never going to be anything but a boutique cartridge. Saami could always approve/standardize it at super low velocities for safety, and boutique/handloaders could do what they want with it. Isn't that basically what screwed the 280's popularity, that it had to be neutered to avoid fragging remington 760 actions?

From the start, I questioned the potential drama that could come from the 1:3 twist.

But, innovation from people like Brittingham is incredibly important. People that have the mind for unique ideas and the ability to make them happen. A leader in a field that is almost entirely made up of fad followers. He's always been known as an ass so im sure he'll keep on.

**** Q. Kevin is a pos and nothing he's tied to will ever get my dollars.

So if you screw a 5 twist barrel on a 22-250 and the bullet comes apart at the muzzle and trashes a can, or a 5 twist barrel on a 338lm and it blows up with saami spec ammo...is someone at fault? Seems saami refusing to issue a standard because of suspected/potential use cases is more political than anything

I don't think it's so much SAAMI as it is the majors (ie Hornady) on the board not wanting to bite/vote on it because ultimately it's their bullets.

Running crazy twists or wildcatting an already established cartridge isn't going to fall back on SAMMI, but designing and marketing a crazy twist from the get-go is sort of a different beast.

Idk. Probably a decent amount of political stuff going on behind the scenes but you cannot deny the problems we are seeing with bullets coming apart at that fast of twist, which some say isn't necessary.

Are there documented cases of Gorilla ammo coming apart? I have quite a few boxes of that stuff.

What's the story on him? I've only ever seen Kevin on Demo Ranch videos. So I'm very ignorant about him.

La Fours said:

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What's the story on him? I've only ever seen Kevin on Demo Ranch videos. So I'm very ignorant about him.

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He can seem like a *****/off-putting. Says what's on his mind with no filter. Sometimes he gets it right and sometimes he gets it wrong.

So... He'd fit in here...

Not that I'm aware of. But some dude was complaining on the forums that the groove on the new 342gr is too deep and causing the bullet to become unseated during cycling on gas platforms. I swapped my 12" gas to a 16" bolt due to horrible accuracy on the short gas so haven't been in this scenario.

I definitely get that vibe from the Demo Ranch videos. But that alone doesn't typically make one a POS. There is more to the story.

If only there was a big bore rifle that can shoot subsonic ammo in a well established cartridge.

Bradley.Kohr.II said:

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So... He'd fit in here...

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Kinda like Trump..

Mine shoots great. I have 1/3 twist MosTek made barrel. Groups are sub MOA with Gorilla 285grain. I don't really care about Sami since I reload.

I don't get the fuss about different loads for different barrel lengths. Velocity will be different no matter what caliber you shoot especially in subsonic SBRs. That's not new to 8.6.

Maybe 1/5 is the answer. I don't know. Not sure it matters if you don't shoot a Q rifle. But maybe that's why the Boom Box isn't released yet.

JeremiahJohnson said:

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Mine shoots great. I have 1/3 twist MosTek made barrel. Groups are sub MOA with Gorilla 285grain. I don't really care about Sami since I reload.

I don't get the fuss about different loads for different barrel lengths. Velocity will be different no matter what caliber you shoot especially in subsonic SBRs. That's not new to 8.6.

Maybe 1/5 is the answer. I don't know. Not sure it matters if you don't shoot a Q rifle. But maybe that's why the Boom Box isn't released yet.

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Mine has a MosTek 3-twist barrel as well, and mine also shoots the Gorilla 285 gr subs extremely well - around 1 MOA.

I did have an issue with a bullet immediately expanding out the muzzle that fragged my suppressor when using subs with Maker 338 gr bullets. Luckily I was able to get my suppressor repaired at no cost to me. A buddy had the same issue with bullets coming apart in air with another brand of subsonic ammo, though he was fortunate that bullets didn't open up immediately out the muzzle and destroy his suppressor. But, I've shot a lot of the Gorilla 285 gr subs with great accuracy and terminal performance, so it is my trusted go-to ammo in 8.6.

I sure hope this all gets sorted out because I've been very pleased with the performance of my rifle + Gorilla ammo, and I'd really love to be able to trust other ammo as well.

The fuss about the different loads for different barrel lengths is directly related to the unusually fast 1:3 twist. If a load was designed to stay subsonic out a particular length barrel, it might go supersonic out a longer barrel. 1:3 twist already has a bullet spinning abnormally fast, and increasing velocity beyond supersonic creates tremendous centrifugal force at that spin rate that exceeds the structural integrity of some bullet designs.

I understand going super in a longer barrel. My 300 blk is the same going from an SBR to 16 inch. I have to load accordingly. I guess we are straddling a line of what's reliable in commercially available ammo. I think this is likely a reloading caliber with gorilla being the only current viable option for purchased ammo.

Quote:

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Q/Kevin Brittingham is being blamed for the "ridiculous" twists rate and overhyped

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Here's my shocked face that Kevin B hyped up something that failed:

:|

Total POS. Buy nothing from Q.

Why is he a POS?

Same, have never understood the backstory on the hate for Q. I love lightweight short barreled supressed guns so have always been a fan.

I don't know if he is a POS but he has no filter and bad mouths companies and tech he doesn't like. Does that make him a POS maybe/maybe not. Poor taste more likely. I don't like or dislike him but I like his products. He's very polarizing. Most people either love or hate him.

300 blackout took forever to become popular. I think his marketing of the Honeybadger certainly helped get it mainstream. I assume the Boombox will do the same for 8.6.

I think the Q Fix is one of the coolest rifles on the market. Unfortunately he told me he will never make a lefty. So I won't buy one for myself. Maybe for my son

I like his ideas and shifting gun production to suppressed SBR hunting rifles. Even if you don't like him or his products, you can't deny he is one of the most influential people in this market. His success is creating a demand for this type of rifle that other companies are increasing production on fun and innovative products.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Firearms/s/0ft6WkJx7c

https://patch.com/new-hampshire/salem-nh/exeter-arrest-log-april-30-may-18

There's a lot more that has been taken down from the past, some of the posts are still there, but details taken down.

He threw a huge fit when pewscience didn't give him a 100% positive review on a can. Like 3rd grader calling names and baseless accusations.

He's also f'ed over suppliers of parts for his rifles.

He's abrasive, that's one thing. He really is a POS though.


Buy a sig cross.

I have a faxon 12in barrel on a gasser and it shoots just fine. I'm not taking unreasonable shots and the 285s I have from gorilla have been lethal. Like anything else, if you try to make it do something it wasn't intended to do your results will vary.

See meggy above. He's poison

Reading the Reddit thread now. Thanks.

I mean, I don't blame you. It's not like I research every ceo of every company/brand I purchase from.

But when a guy like Kevin burns as many bridges as he has, plus the police files on him…hard pass. Plenty of other good guys in the firearms world. And nothing "omg I gotta have it" that Q makes. At least for me

It's the reputation that Kevin has built for himself, as a stalking, abusive, loudmouth POS. With police reports to back it up. And an employment/litigation history to further it.

But sure, let's pretend like that's "my assessment" since you don't like some of my opinions. Lol. You're an interesting dude.

It's funny this thread derailed into a character assessment of KB and Tikka. I have no ill will towards either.

lol. I don't know if that is suppose to be a good thing or not. KBs rap sheet is a mighty bit longer than mine.

But I'll take it? Even back handed? Ha.

Haha no offense intended.

I try not judge based off internet gossip. I wait until my personal interactions create that decision for me. It's too easy to get caught up in it.

There are only a handful of OB guys I know personally. Even invited one of you idiots to come hunt at my land. We ended up becoming friends.

JeremiahJohnson said:

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Mine shoots great. I have 1/3 twist MosTek made barrel. Groups are sub MOA with Gorilla 285grain. I don't really care about Sami since I reload.

I don't get the fuss about different loads for different barrel lengths. Velocity will be different no matter what caliber you shoot especially in subsonic SBRs. That's not new to 8.6.

Maybe 1/5 is the answer. I don't know. Not sure it matters if you don't shoot a Q rifle. But maybe that's why the Boom Box isn't released yet.

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From a manufacturing standpoint, this would be an absolute nightmare to try to deal with. And no matter what you did, somebody would load the wrong ammo in the wrong barrel and then you as the manufacturer would receive the blame.

Hell, look at the threads here about various projectiles that are well established out of normal twist rate rifles and how some folks absolutely blast Manuracturer A or B because they put a varmint round into a .300 Win Mag and shot at something much larger than a varmint 60 yards away and the bullet didn't perform up to their expectations.

Right or wrong - manufacturers want something they can load that will work in 95% of the guns out there in that chamber, and not something that they will end up spending more time and money defending their product on because of misuse than they will ever make in sales.