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Pistol Shooting

3,498 Views | 33 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by JFABNRGR
JB!98
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Why am I such a lousy shot with a pistol? I got another 1911 for Christmas and I took it out today to break it in. From 7 yards I was consistently inconsistent. Some magazines were high, some were right, some were low. All relatively good groups, but just different places every damn time. My 15 year old shot circles around me with it and just looked at me like, "Have you ever shot a pistol before?" I am the one that taught him to shoot a pistol!!!!

Any advice? In 30+ years of shooting pistols I have never been all that great.

Thanks

***Does anyone have the pistol shooting chart?****
Today, unfortunately, many Americans have good reason to fear that they will be victimized if they are unable to protect themselves. And today, no less than in 1791, the Second Amendment guarantees their right to do so. - Justice Samuel Alito 2022
Cromagnum
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Anticipating the shot too much and jerking the trigger instead of squeezing it is my best guess. Assuming you were only using one brand of ammo and not like playing mix and match.
Fishing Fools
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Post pics or it didn't happen…
Lonestar-aught-six
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Could also be consistency of grip and trigger finger.
ag0207
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Get a red dot sight for one of your pistols. As you fire the dot will basically show you exactly what you are doing as you are pulling the trigger. It will make fixing your shot much easier.
cuz-i-can
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cuz-i-can
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JB!98
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cuz-i-can said:



Thanks!!! My son is left handed. I assume you flip the chart for lefty's?
Today, unfortunately, many Americans have good reason to fear that they will be victimized if they are unable to protect themselves. And today, no less than in 1791, the Second Amendment guarantees their right to do so. - Justice Samuel Alito 2022
JB!98
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Fishing Fools said:

Post pics or it didn't happen…
My targets were quickly disposed of in embarrassment!
Today, unfortunately, many Americans have good reason to fear that they will be victimized if they are unable to protect themselves. And today, no less than in 1791, the Second Amendment guarantees their right to do so. - Justice Samuel Alito 2022
JB!98
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ag0207 said:

Get a red dot sight for one of your pistols. As you fire the dot will basically show you exactly what you are doing as you are pulling the trigger. It will make fixing your shot much easier.
None of my 1911's are cut for a red dot. If they were I would try it. None of my Glock's are either.
Today, unfortunately, many Americans have good reason to fear that they will be victimized if they are unable to protect themselves. And today, no less than in 1791, the Second Amendment guarantees their right to do so. - Justice Samuel Alito 2022
cuz-i-can
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Fishing Fools
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JB!98 said:

Fishing Fools said:

Post pics or it didn't happen…
My targets were quickly disposed of in embarrassment!


I only ask cause what you consider poor shooting may be perfection to the OB experts!
jrb2019
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Not to oversimplify, but it comes down to sight alignment and trigger control. Properly point the gun where you want to hit and make the gun go 'bang' without disturbing where you are pointing. At normal pistol distances, it's that simple.

Dry-fire a lot to improve your trigger control. Hard front sight focus with iron sights for the greatest consistency and accuracy. Tip of the front sight flush to the top of the rear and centered in between.

Also, those charts are largely meaningless in determining what's going on IMO. The shooting takes place at the gun, not the target. What we do during the shot process determines the outcome at the target. I recommend having a good instructor watch you. If they are watching the target, they can't tell you what you're doing.
ag0207
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JB!98 said:

ag0207 said:

Get a red dot sight for one of your pistols. As you fire the dot will basically show you exactly what you are doing as you are pulling the trigger. It will make fixing your shot much easier.
None of my 1911's are cut for a red dot. If they were I would try it. None of my Glock's are either.


Sounds like a good excuse to buy a new pistol!
96AustinAg
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I hate to tell you this, but that chart was created for one handed bullseye shooting and is generally worthless. Most people are doing a combination of things wrong simultaneously.

Blue star for jrb2019's post.

JB!98 said:

Why am I such a lousy shot with a pistol? I got another 1911 for Christmas and I took it out today to break it in. From 7 yards I was consistently inconsistent. Some magazines were high, some were right, some were low. All relatively good groups, but just different places every damn time. My 15 year old shot circles around me with it and just looked at me like, "Have you ever shot a pistol before?" I am the one that taught him to shoot a pistol!!!!

Any advice? In 30+ years of shooting pistols I have never been all that great.

Thanks

***Does anyone have the pistol shooting chart?****
KR Training staff instructor - www.krtraining.com
Tx95Ag
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cuz-i-can said:





This chart nails my bad habit of pushing anticipating recoil and being high left. It's not terrible, but noticeable.
dr_boogs
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***Disclaimer - the narrative below is for defensive pistol shooting under duress to achieve speed and accuracy. Its focus is not range accuracy at fixed distance and fixed shooter position with unlimited time between shots.

To achieve accuracy with a defensive handgun, stance, dominant hand grip, support hand grip, arm/forearm position are all foundational. Grip depends on pistol type and hand size. There are different grips for semi auto vs revolver shooting.

Finger pad position on the trigger is also important. The middle of the pad of your finger tip should be centered on your trigger, not the joint between 2nd and 3rd phalanx bone. With your finger pad centered, when you make the shot, depress the trigger slowly straight back toward you. Pull that finger pad toward you and hold it there through the shot. A malpostioned finger or finger joint on the trigger will often result in a shot pulled low and away from the target.

Proper trigger finger positioning and trigger pull allow you to begin to understand trigger reset. After the shot slowly allow your finger to drift forward and you will feel the click of the trigger reset. Stop your finger right there and you are ready to press into the next shot. This allows you to move your finger and the trigger a shorter distance between shots, adding improved feel and accuracy. Trigger reset and trigger pull vary widely depending on pistol action and type.

You mentioned 1911 shooting, which are SA semi autos classically with amazing triggers. They typically have short resets and crisp, clean trigger breaks that are fantastic when compared to most out of the box striker fired pistols or DA revolvers or DA/SA semis so you've likely got a pretty good trigger on your 1911.

The paragraph above focuses on trigger portion of handgun shooting, but sight alignment and sight picture are the other parts of the equation. And these 2 parts of the shooting equation work together but are built on a foundation of stance, grip (both hands are key) and arm position.

You want to make your shot with both arms in extension, with no bend in your elbows. Certainly not the historically taught stance and grip with a slight bend in your dominant elbow, body angled to the side, support hand under the grip supporting the gun like a teacup. This is how I learned to shoot when I was a kid - it was not ideal. I had to break all that down and build a more consistent and stable foundation from scratch.

Arms should work together to create an A shape. Torso faces your target. No angle to body or if any, just slightly so. Weight is on the center of your feet, slight forward bend to your back at your hips. Maybe 60-70% of your weight on the balls of your feet. Think of an athletic stance but not with your heels off the ground. Slight bend in the knees. This allows you to absorb recoil and also move more easily when shooting when you start doing this as a component of defensive pistol training. These, when combined with stance and grip form the foundation of a solid shooting position.

Support hand needs to be on the gun, on as much of the gun as possible. For a semi auto, this means that the support hand fingers are positioned around the front of the grip, with the support thumb and thumb pad canted forward, almost uncomfortably so, toward the muzzle, so that the support thumb and thumb base are running along the side of the slide , in front of and to support the dominant hand thumb. The support thumb and thumb base can and should be pressed there for additional support. You then use pressure from your dominant hand index finger base knuckle and support hand thumb base to squeeze or sandwich the pistol between your two hands, just below the slide. If you will work on this support hand grip it will make a huge difference.

It is from this foundation that the trigger press and sight picture work together to make accurate (and eventually fast) shot placement.

I haven't talked much about sight picture as it varies based on iron sights or red dots. But the bottom line is that you must make sure you have a good sight picture before you initiate the trigger press of the next shot. Don't start the trigger pull until you see your target clearly and have also aligned your sights. This is where red dots really shine once you learn how to get them on target as target ID and sight alignment happen simultaneously. When that shot recoils, you must again regain your sight picture before making the next shot.

***Disclaimer 2 - I am by no means a professional shooting instructor, just a guy who geeked out on defensive pistol shooting for a number of years. A pro may come along and correct some of this and if he/she does, by all means listen to them and ignore my advice.

I have taken a decent number of defensive pistol shooting classes from KR training. These are principles I learned over my time working with them. Can't say enough about that group, really made me a competent pistol shooter. Bender Rodriguez on this forum also is a great instructor and resource and he will gladly give you a lesson.

The next thing (after you can achieve accuracy goals at fixed distance and stance) is to introduce the stress of time with a shot timer or even better yet competition. Bender is the best advocate on this forum for stressing yourself with at minimum a shot timer in your practice sessions or even better yet, competition, as those skills learned when competing are the closet you will ever get to real life defensive shooting.
aggiesundevil4
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If you are serious about getting better, buy this. I used it today for the first time and it is awesome. Shot by shot feedback and trend analysis and graphs. Really neat technology and made me a better pistol shooter is a single session. Seriously.

https://mantisx.com/products/mantis-x10-elite
JSKolache
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Get a feel for the trigger is best thing you can do initially. Feeling how far the take up is before the break point.
HumbleAg04
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I sucked. Then COVID happened and I spent too many damn hours of my life in zoom meetings doing dry fire drills. I suck less now.
TRD-Ferguson
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My wife wanted to learn how to shoot a few months ago. Had never handled a weapon and never showed interest. World events, the border, etc prompted a change of heart I suppose.

I paid for a private lesson rather than teach her myself. At conclusion of private lesson she shoots a perfect score. Instructor can't believe she's shooting so well.

Takes LTC class. Shoots perfect score. Also purchased the Mantis X that she uses daily.

Maybe have someone watch you shoot and make suggestions. I'm sold on the Mantis X. Plus, it's fun'

Animal Eight 84
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I took a few pistol shooting classes from Larry Vickers.

Best drill I learned was to have a partner put a dime or penny on top of the front site and you dry fire simulating shooting at target. Controlling trigger so penny doesn't fall off. Do this 10 times. Focusing on trigger control.

Then have a buddy load one round - OR Don't load a round. Doing it where you can't see it. You want to be surprised. Them safely hand you the pistol and put the penny on the front site. You shoot for bullseye at 10 yards. Repeat half a dozen times.


If penny falls off repeat the drill where you dry fire not surprised.

Ignore any front sight wobble focus always on trigger control.


This is his video showing the drill. Works best with you having pistol fully extended ready to shoot and buddy putting coin on top of front site.



AgGrad99
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Try holding it straight out with one hand, sideways. That always works in the movies.
fixer
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I've come to understand pistol shooting to be like learning a musical instrument.

You have to keep at it and with good practice habits.

That said ball and dummy drills are the single best and most time efficient way to dial in accuray.

ball and dummy:

load a mag with alternating dummy rounds (google AZOOM). Your front sight should not move hardly at all when the trigger breaks on the dummy rounds. The next round is a live round and should be an opportunity to get a perfect trigger press. repeat as many times until the variation between a good dry fire and live fire is minimal.

other points:

focus on the front sight. It seems counterintuitive but the front sight should be in focus in your eye. You should also be able to see that the front sight is between the rear sight posts. Your target is blurry but at this point you know that you are putting the target right on your front sight.

Figure out if your pistol has sights that are "drive the dot" , 6 o'clock hold, or some other variation. This will come from experience.

Ammo: large differences in grain weight will move groups up or down. I've also seen crappy ammo do more "patterning" than grouping in same gun, same range session, same shooter.

For right to left bias, once you are getting good groups from practicing the above, then drifting sights can help.

F-O-R-S : front opposite, rear same. If you need your groups to move right, then drift the rear sight to the right. If the sight has to be drifted too far (like it is hanging off the edge of groove) then drift the front sight the opposite direction that you want the groups to move.

Trigger pulls: Every hand-to-pistol interaction is unique. You will have to experiment on your hold and most importantly your trigger finger placement on the trigger. There is no rule of thumb. I don't care what the internet says. Try putting your finger on the trigger up to the first knuckle, then trying it with different positions up to the pad of your finger.

Gun choice: even a crappy 1911 is gonna be stupid accurate. You don't have anything to worry about here.

fixer
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HumbleAg04 said:

I sucked. Then COVID happened and I spent too many damn hours of my life in zoom meetings doing dry fire drills. I suck less now.
hell yeah...
DargelSkout
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It's the OB, you need a new gun.
BenderRodriguez
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Jrb summed it up well. All you have to do is not disturb the sights while you pull the trigger. Easy, right? Wish it was. Pistols are hard to shoot well.

Short sight radius, no stock, no four points of contact. They're just hard to consistently shoot accurately, and thats before you add speed or movement into the mix.

On top of all that, its a perishable skill. If I don't shoot or dryfire pistols for a month, even if I'm shooting rifles or shotguns during that time frame my performance becomes measurably worse.

Besides taking classes and shooting competitions, the best thing you can do is practice with a purpose. You wouldn't try to get stronger by wandering around the gym picking random weights and exercises, or train for a marathon by just heading out for a jog without a watch or knowing how far you ran.

IMO you are serious about improving as a pistol shooter, you need a timer. If you can't measure how fast and accurately you are shooting, you have no quantifiable way to measure improvement.

Its also worth rethinking range sessions. Time on the range is valuable and expensive. If you are trying to get better, you should be working specific things in dryfire and using range time to validate your practice. If I havent dry fired something specific in a while, I wont go to the range even if I have the opportunity, because just putting holes in paper is a waste of time and money.

If you dont have a timer and want to work on more consistent accuracy, I might suggest two wildly different targets and distances. Use a Dot Torture target at 3 yards. You dont have to blow all 50 rounds following the actual drill. Dryfire bulls-eyeing all 10 targets with a single shot 2-3 times a day for a week. I'd also dryfire a B-8 at 25 yards. 10 shots as slow as you please.

To really see the benefit of dryfire, shoot both drills next time you go shoot. Save the targets, and spent 10-15 min a day for a week straight dry firing those same two targets and distances focusing on your grip and what the sights are doing before, during and after you break the shot. Then go back to the range after a week of good dry fire work and see if your live fire improves. I'd bet good money it will, and all you need is 40 rounds and some good dry fire time.
JB!98
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Thanks everyone. I have never really practiced with a pistol all that much. My post was really more self deprecating because I really stunk it up yesterday. My 15 year old is now eaten up with pistol shooting, so it will give me an excuse to practice and get out to the range more. I like seeing him grow as a shooter more than my own success.

Thankfully, long gun shooting comes really natural to both he and I. I had not shot longish range steel in 3 years and within 3 shots was back on it yesterday. Had him ringing the steel also. Just great times with the boy.
Today, unfortunately, many Americans have good reason to fear that they will be victimized if they are unable to protect themselves. And today, no less than in 1791, the Second Amendment guarantees their right to do so. - Justice Samuel Alito 2022
91AggieLawyer
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What other handguns have you shot? I've seen others that have not shot 1911s particularly well. It isn't always the accuracy of the handgun in question. Sometimes its the weight, the fit in the hand, etc. My wife picked up a Glock 43 I had at the time and shot it fairly well. I was surprised given the smaller size and recoil and that she hadn't fired a handgun. We got her a 9mm 1911 which she likes and did well on the LTC.
JB!98
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91AggieLawyer said:

What other handguns have you shot? I've seen others that have not shot 1911s particularly well. It isn't always the accuracy of the handgun in question. Sometimes its the weight, the fit in the hand, etc. My wife picked up a Glock 43 I had at the time and shot it fairly well. I was surprised given the smaller size and recoil and that she hadn't fired a handgun. We got her a 9mm 1911 which she likes and did well on the LTC.
Man, over my lifetime just about everything. I hate to say it, but I shoot my Glock the best and that is the reason it is my EDC gun. I just love 1911's. I started on a Browing Hi-power when I was 17. I kick myself in the ass for every getting rid of that gun. It is an interesting and frustrating thought exercise to think of the pistols that I have had and traded over the years. Some of them I would love to have back.

The best shooting most accurate handgun I have is my Ruger MKI. It is a tack driver and I shoot it pretty well

**edit for rule 1***

.
Today, unfortunately, many Americans have good reason to fear that they will be victimized if they are unable to protect themselves. And today, no less than in 1791, the Second Amendment guarantees their right to do so. - Justice Samuel Alito 2022
Charismatic Megafauna
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You don't need another pistol, you need to start reloading! Thousand or so rounds of cat sneeze wadcutters or powder coated cast boolits and you will be shooting your 1911s as well as you shoot that ruger!
91AggieLawyer
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JB!98 said:

91AggieLawyer said:

What other handguns have you shot? I've seen others that have not shot 1911s particularly well. It isn't always the accuracy of the handgun in question. Sometimes its the weight, the fit in the hand, etc. My wife picked up a Glock 43 I had at the time and shot it fairly well. I was surprised given the smaller size and recoil and that she hadn't fired a handgun. We got her a 9mm 1911 which she likes and did well on the LTC.
Man, over my lifetime just about everything. I hate to say it, but I shoot my Glock the best and that is the reason it is my EDC gun. I just love 1911's. I started on a Browing Hi-power when I was 17. I kick myself in the ass for every getting rid of that gun. It is an interesting and frustrating thought exercise to think of the pistols that I have had and traded over the years. Some of them I would love to have back.

The best shooting most accurate handgun I have is my Ruger MKI. It is a tack driver and I shoot it pretty well

**edit for rule 1***

.


At this point, I'd go to an Ophthalmologist. You may have some eye issue/damage that is causing your depth perception to be an issue. I've always had an issue with glare. Now, as I've aged, my contrast is more and more suspect. In well lit areas, it isn't a problem, but in dim light I can't tell dark objects apart well anymore.

BTW, I have the same Ruger in a Mark II. I need to do a deep cleaning on it but field stripping that thing is a chore.
JB!98
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91AggieLawyer said:

JB!98 said:

91AggieLawyer said:

What other handguns have you shot? I've seen others that have not shot 1911s particularly well. It isn't always the accuracy of the handgun in question. Sometimes its the weight, the fit in the hand, etc. My wife picked up a Glock 43 I had at the time and shot it fairly well. I was surprised given the smaller size and recoil and that she hadn't fired a handgun. We got her a 9mm 1911 which she likes and did well on the LTC.
Man, over my lifetime just about everything. I hate to say it, but I shoot my Glock the best and that is the reason it is my EDC gun. I just love 1911's. I started on a Browing Hi-power when I was 17. I kick myself in the ass for every getting rid of that gun. It is an interesting and frustrating thought exercise to think of the pistols that I have had and traded over the years. Some of them I would love to have back.

The best shooting most accurate handgun I have is my Ruger MKI. It is a tack driver and I shoot it pretty well

**edit for rule 1***

.


At this point, I'd go to an Ophthalmologist. You may have some eye issue/damage that is causing your depth perception to be an issue. I've always had an issue with glare. Now, as I've aged, my contrast is more and more suspect. In well lit areas, it isn't a problem, but in dim light I can't tell dark objects apart well anymore.

BTW, I have the same Ruger in a Mark II. I need to do a deep cleaning on it but field stripping that thing is a chore.
Oh, my eyes are definitely part of the problem! Years of readers and computer screens have taken their toll.

I have taken that pistol apart exactly once, never again. It is built like a tank so a cursory barrel/chamber cleaning is good enough.
Today, unfortunately, many Americans have good reason to fear that they will be victimized if they are unable to protect themselves. And today, no less than in 1791, the Second Amendment guarantees their right to do so. - Justice Samuel Alito 2022
JFABNRGR
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Stance, grip, sight alignment, sight picture are all worthless endeavors if the gun moves when the trigger is pressed/pulled.
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