I've been researching floating vs bonded neutral generators trying to figure out if I need a ground. Lots of contradictory information out there.

It seems there's agreement that if you are using an extension cord you don't need to be grounded and drive a stake 8 feet in the ground. This is my scenario, extension cord use only. I'm not going to hook it up to my house


My confusion comes from this scenario whether you are using a floating neutral generator and whether it's safe for extension cord use? The more informed sounding information I came across seems to get fuzzy when it's a floating neutral generator, which many are made this way including mine.

This guy said you need to bond the floating neutral generator if you're just using an extension cord.





But then I think I found where the fuzzy talk comes in. On his website he appears to have edited the language used in this scenario on hos chart after initially making this video

First pic is picture of the above linked video and the second is a screenshot of his update to the floating neutral with extension cord scenario.


Anyone have experience with this. Have you used an extension cord to power something like a portable AC or heater with a floating neutral generator. Is it safe


My perception is it's basically safe, everyone does it but people get fuzzy when talking about it because it's technically not safe

Thoughts?

Bottom line cliff notes.

When using a floating neutral generator with an extension cord only(not plugged into the house electrical system), is it safe.

I also understand you don't need to ground when using extension cords whether it's a floating or bonded generator

My Honda generator's manual states that its ground terminals are connected to the generator frame. There's a grounding post on the frame with a wing nut on it.

I therefore purchased a copper ground cable and a 4 foot ground rod and drove it into the ground behind the house in an area that stays damp frequently. We're on solid limestone below so 4 foot was the best I could do and even that was a major challenge. Covered it nicely with a standard sprinkler round valve box.

Works great!

I'm not sure if that means yours is floating or bonded but I'm concerned with floating

As I understand it, grounding a floating neutral generator for use with extension cords alone effective does nothing but electrify the ground cord in the case of a fault but it won't throw the breaker to prevent giving someone a shock

I believe many generators are set up as floating neutral because the assumption is most are used to hook up to the house directly

Honda inverter generators are floating neutral

Picard said:

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Honda inverter generators are floating neutral

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If you're using extension cords then you fall into the scenario I'm talking about and where a lot of the language gets fuzzy. My example is where this guy updated his website, initially stating not recommended and this is as clear an answer as I've found


https://homebatterybank.com/do-i-need-to-ground-a-generator-simply-explained/

I agree there's a lot of conflicting information out there on this topic…..but I think you're overthinking this.

The vast majority of people using generators aren't worried about using an earth ground. Heck, they're not worried about much of anything else either. Go check out some tailgates and ratty RV sites. No one dies.

I had doubts about my grounding when I added a mobility kit to the generator (handle plus plastic/rubber wheels) so I added the 4 foot ground rod at that time. I'm a belt and suspenders kind of guy, conservative approach. It has run my entire HVAC system furnace on natural gas no problem on a 75' extension cord. Also run the entire home network rack concurrently and the really sensitive UPS has no alarms.

Hopefully other posters can provide more input here. All I can say is use a basic earth ground rod if you want piece of mind.

Thanks for the response. I sense I'm over thinking it but the fuzzy information doesn't make.me feel any better about it. This is all just for power outrage situation at home but using an extension cord only for me. Tha 2020 freeze got my family good, 9 hrs of power over 5 days. We also have outages in the summer sometimes and ercot just sent out another concern the other day

That's the thing though, the information I have found for using an extension cord only, says a grounding rod does not do anything with a floating neutral as far as safety goes. Some information hints at a need to bond the floating neutral somehow but doesn't really say how. I found some info that said I could buy something that looks like an extension cord plug minus the cord that I could plug into 1 household plug on the generator and effectively turns it into a bonded generator but that's all fuzzy too

And I think a bonded generator is safe, with no ground rod using a extension cord only



If you plug it into the house then you definitely have to ground it in a dofferent way dependikg on. bonded or floating but that's not my purpose.

I'm only going to use an extension cord, which the info says no grounding. In fact some say grounding a bonded generator makes it more dangerous

I watched the video, but I haven't researched floating neutral portable generators, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

BLUF - For cookout/camping/remote use - I would ground the generator and use a bonded neutral, if I could. Also, use three prong devices if you can.

I think the presenter in the video starts off well by explaining that many of the terms in grounding and bonding can be conflated, and they have their own purpose and meaning. This is very true.

But I think he misses a nuance that grounding is not just for lighting/surges. Grounding the system also provides a reference so that the system voltages stabilize with relation to the earth and everything around it. We sort of treat the earth like a known 0V reference point. A 120V hot is only 120V with reference to neutral. This hot voltage is "added" to the neutral by the supply winding (transformer or generator). When a system is grounded, the neutral is tied to the 0V earth. When unbonded, the neutral can float, and the hot floats with it. So a 200V neutral would make for a 320V hot, when referenced to earth. Most systems won't see that kind float they couple naturally through capacitance to the earth, but that's no guarantee. Ungrounded systems exist and have a purpose, but they typically use beefier insulation.

The presenter correctly explains that a good bonding scheme provides a good current path back to the protective device (breaker, fuse). During a fault condition, solid bonding provides a low resistance path back to the protective device, so that it will trip quickly if there is any current making it to ground. Because there is a low resistance path back to the source, current flows well which exceeds the trip rating (V (constant) = I (high) * R (low)), the device trips. As resistance goes up, current goes down and the likelihood of tripping your protective device goes down as well. Floating neutrals don't give you this low impedance path back to the device for ground faults.

When he talks about the voltage gradient, he claims that on a bonded system, a ground rod is a no-no with an extension cord. Firstly, this set-up is no different than a permanent system like what's in your house. If you touch a faulted device (like his toaster), then you could potentially complete the ground path. So, his website is sort of correct in calling this a potential shock hazard, but this is true for all systems, not just portable generators. Secondly, modern appliances are built differently than they were in the olden times. Most devices are "double insulated". Not only do they have a plastic body or some kind of insulative layer, but all the metal parts are connected back to ground through the third prong on the outlet, which gives them a solid path back to the protective device. Most two prong devices have dual layers of insulation, so it's very hard to energize the body of a device. It happens, but it's very rare.

In my opinion, for all the reasons we ground our house, it's good practice should ground portable generators. A big reason that he didn't discuss is that grounded system limit the amount of float available. Systems that float can cause some break-down of the insulation in wires and electrical devices prematurely, leading to more faults. By grounding the system, it prolongs the life of the layers of insulation in those end-devices.

Speculation - I think the only reason floating neutral portable generators are sold is because they are typically paired with transfer switches that have bonded neutrals. It's not a good idea to have your neutral bonded to earth in multiple locations on the system. I would think a portable generator designer would make them bonded neutrals if they were used exclusively for remote use (cookouts, camping, etc). But I think they're designing them for liability reasons for the lowest common denominator user.

But my two cents? Bond the neutral to ground, and ground the generator with a rod when not connected to your home.

What's bond the neutral to ground mean? That plug with no cord I mentioned that goes into the other household plug on the Generator?

One reason I'm avoiding grounding is this is for hone emergency use only and I have a very small zero lot yard with sprinkler system underground and who knows what else but it's such a small yard whatever is there feeding my house, throwing a deep lawn dart is not exactly unlikely to hit it

jamey said:

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What's bond the neutral to ground mean?

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Meaning, I would not use a floating neutral. A bonded neutral means the neutral is connected to ground. A floating neutral means the neutral is not connected to ground. I clarified above, I'm specifically referring to extension cord uses, ie camping, cookouts, etc. Not connected to a house or other system, which totally depends on other equipment.

jamey said:

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That plug with no cord I mentioned that goes into the other household plug on the Generator?

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I'm having a hard time picturing the cord/plug you're talking about, and I'm not sure I would use it based on the description. Also, depends on what generator your have if it's appropriate.

jamey said:

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One reason I'm avoiding grounding is this is for hone emergency use only and I have a very small zero lot yard with sprinkler system underground and who knows what else but it's such a small yard whatever is there feeding my house, throwing a deep lawn dart is not exactly unlikely to hit it

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Not sure if your layout would allow it, but you could just ground your portable generator with the grounding rod that your panel already uses. You just need to buy another brass bonding clamp and some wire. It should be outside your home wherever the power comes into your house.

Where the electricity comes into my house is right by the neighbors garage and uneven ground


Here's a link the the plug I'm referring to

https://www.amazon.com/Southwire-Company-LLC-44400-Generator/dp/B07F4R7BDL/ref=asc_df_B07F4R7BDL/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=241918478831&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13737541422510128789&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9026798&hvtargid=pla-637434786144&psc=1


I already own a generator but it's a floating neutral one. Most seem to be floating neutral. Perhaps I should just sell it and find one thats bonded neutral

That'll bond your neutral just fine, but should probably only use it on a small generator. How many watts is your unit?

BenTheGoodAg said:

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That'll bond your neutral just fine, but should probably only use it on a small generator. How many watts is your unit?

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It's 4500 starting watts and 3650 running watts

If I use this I've effectively turned my floating neutral generator into a bonded neutral generator and based in the OPs links and chart...I should be safe without grounding for extension cords as I understand it. According to him I'm "probably" OK even with a floating neutral but perhaps not technically OK

But with the plug making it bonded, I'm good, no ground rod

The difference in a open neutral and a bonded neutral is a strap. An incoming home service has the neutral connected (bonded) to the service ground. A generator cannot generate an earth ground. That is why they are advertised as a floating neutral. The only ground you need is for motor loads. Your rv should be frame grounded, which is maintained with the stabilizers on the ground. For general camping, 99% of all devices are a two wire connection that is double insulated. It you think you need a ground, buy a ground rod and chassis ground the generator. If you are connecting to your house, the house is grounded. It you are plugging it into a furnace or freezer, you will more than likely take the motor out on thermal overload from a small wire long cord, before you short out a motor. A ground is only a pathway for a shorted out device. Quit looking up things on Google.

Based on the wattage, it depends. Can you share the model number?

Technically, you probably could get away with no grounding rod, but I wouldn't recommend it if your manual calls for it.

100892 Champion

Just read this on Oshas website, also says no ground rod if it's bonded but thry kinda ignore the floating neutral with extension cords

fuzzyfan said:

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The difference in a open neutral and a bonded neutral is a strap. An incoming home service has the neutral connected (bonded) to the service ground. A generator cannot generate an earth ground. That is why they are advertised as a floating neutral. The only ground you need is for motor loads. Your rv should be frame grounded, which is maintained with the stabilizers on the ground. For general camping, 99% of all devices are a two wire connection that is double insulated. It you think you need a ground, buy a ground rod and chassis ground the generator. If you are connecting to your house, the house is grounded. It you are plugging it into a furnace or freezer, you will more than likely take the motor out on thermal overload from a small wire long cord, before you short out a motor. A ground is only a pathway for a shorted out device. Quit looking up things on Google.

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I'm using it for home emergency, with extension cords only so that means portable AC and possibly portable heater, along with coffee pot..etc with extension cords running from outside to inside the house

I'd just follow Champion's guidance:

Product Manual - Calls for Grounding, shows the ground terminal to be next to the Receptacle
Bulletin - Recommend Grounding
Support Page (Floating Neutral) - You have to search for neutral in the Q&A box near the bottom of the page, but they give the OK for a similar plug to what you linked above. This depends on what you're running on this machine. If you are running two prong devices, it's not necessary.

OSHA is not really the authority on grounding practices, FWIW.

Thanks for the help! I found the grounding plug recommendation. I'm sure they all recommend grounding to cover their backside but that's a bit if an issue with my small yard and sprinkler system. I'm looking for what's really, pretty much ok and commonly done. I tried referencing that Q&A box but it mixes up multiple different models and was adding to my confusion bust missed the one you found calling out my model

I plan to use 3 plug devices only by plugging it into a power strip to give me more plugs