Assuming I had a roof that faced the perfect way and I wanted to get solar panels without getting screwed over, who would I talk to first?

I figure not the solar company representatives, and I assume not my power company. Who is the best first point of contact to get something done the right way, assuming I even went through with it.

First you have to let us know if you want solar to save money or for personal satisfaction.

agnerd said:

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First you have to let us know if you want solar to save money or for personal satisfaction.

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Is the former possible?

Saving money personally satisfies me

It's been a while, but last time I looked, these systems payout near the end of equipment life. Terrible ROR.

As another poster noted, what is your goal? If you have a personal crusade to limit your carbon footprint, feel good about solar and have the cash- go for it.

Watch out for fly by night companies that come sell this stuff, install then disappear. I would guess most of these companies operate this way…

Probably also supporting China since they make most of the panels. I can't really think about a more un-American thing to do than install solar!

Now- if you have a deer lease, camper trailer or other remote application, I think Solar is great.

I know very few people that are happy with them. Of course, when I am involved that's because they now have to let me deal with removing them to re-roof, but still. A lot of the ones I remove don't work at full capacity anyway, and 8/10 times, the company that installed them isn't even in business anymore which means I use my guy to take them off and he will not warrant any work for them. He takes them off. He puts them on.

That industry seems to be, per my opinion, shadier than a roofer in a white Toyota corolla with Mexico plates and a step ladder.

The last solar panel job I did, the owner told me that the panels operated at 30% and they wanted them removed and put on their new house. I took them off. The installer said that they are missing crucial components that the original installer never put on so they were never really working right, and to put them on the new house would be about 500 bucks less than an entire brand new system. The original installer was long gone. So, the homeowner opted to throw them in the trash. I threw all 20 panels and racks on my trailer and tossed them on facebook. Some dude out of Austin came and got them and gave me a pile of cash and said he worked for a solar installer.

It was wierd. I don't care. He venmo'd the money and they were gone.

My point in all of this is that I think the consumer can't really go anywhere except a special installer if they want to get rebates and those guys seems to turnover every 6 months.

texAZtea said:

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Saving money personally satisfies me

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Then do not buy solar.

As mentioned the rate of return is awful. Double that awfulness if you want to actually have a battery backup added to it.

Unreliable grid, solar is "cool to me", etc. can also factor into your decision making.

You literally answered your own question in your title. "I know solar panels are a bad idea"

Solar water heating has some financial merit.
However that's a DIY project with small total savings.

For a suburban home it's a big fat no, even more so if you live in DFW where you get hail. We have some that try to sell me them this time of year and I always ask them to do the math, most don't understand how little they charge since they are only good part of the day. Plus when it hails and you need a new roof, who pays to take the solar panels off and put them back on? For the most part the home owner so the ROI is even worse than most think

If you have land and there is a portion that is not ideal for anything it may be worth it, more so if you can get tax credits and subsidies. I know my parents were looking into it for our land but seeing as they haven't purchased anything I don't think it was financially prudent.

What about wind power? There are companies that sell small wind generators that have a wing span of about 8-10 feet. They are on poles that are around 30-40 feet tall. As much as the wind blows in Texas, and the fact that they could work day or night, would this be a good option?

If you do most of the install yourself you can have it paid for itself in 5-6 years.

But most of these solar companies are scam artists

Basically if you know what you're doing it can be worth it but if not you need to be able to live in your house for 15 years and hope you don't need to repair your roof.

Personally once I buy my forever home I plan on installing solar on a separate structure and doing 90% of the work myself.

Edit:

You would be better served by switching to a heat pump water heater, turning your attic into a conditioned space, and installing mini-splits.

clarythedrill said:

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What about wind power? There are companies that sell small wind generators that have a wing span of about 8-10 feet. They are on poles that are around 30-40 feet tall. As much as the wind blows in Texas, and the fact that they could work day or night, would this be a good option?

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Wind power is useless at the residential scale.

Only real application is on a sail boat.

Our co-op has been pushing this a lot. They seem to want this to deal with demand.

Does that not make sense, either?

Bradley.Kohr.II said:

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Our co-op has been pushing this a lot. They seem to want this to deal with demand.

Does that not make sense, either?

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Sure, it makes sense. But they aren't the ones who have to deal with the risks.

So we had a door to door solicitor come by and my wife told him we were interested so he came back for a sit down sales pitch. I told her I wasn't interested so I wouldn't be sitting down with anyone.

Anyways, how it was explained to her and from what I overheard and read is that you have the panels but you're still on the grid with a normal electric provider. While you consume energy from the grid your panels are adding to the grid. At the end of each month you get a credit for what you've added. You use that credit to put towards paying off your panels/install. Once they're paid off in however many years then you're pocketing that money each month.

So yes you're saving money on power from month to month but you're turning around and paying off your panels/install so they're not making money for a while. They sell it as 'Yeah it doesn't make you money for awhile but it's free until then'.

Seems like it would work if you have the cash to fork over and not finance them (or don't mind waiting a few years before they're making you money) and you'll be in your home for the foreseeable future.

That doesn't include your insurance increasing because they have to pay for removal if something happens to your roof

You have to pay for removal and reinstall if you need a new roof.


Buuuut. If electric rates keep raising it could be paid off faster than you think.

Installing solar on a roof in hurricane country just seems like poor reasoning to me.

I've thought about installing them on the roof of my barn where I have a metal roof, but I haven't been able to make myself pull the trigger. Our Co-op power rates are high but the pay off is still a long ways out there.

kaleb_allison said:

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I've thought about installing them on the roof of my barn where I have a metal roof, but I haven't been able to make myself pull the trigger. Our Co-op power rates are high but the pay off is still a long ways out there.

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I've considered the same thing and I think that's a reasonable alternative to the roof of your house.

I have a small (1600w) offgrid setup I installed over my carport roof (not a flat roof) in my backyard. Built a 2x4 frame to attach panels to in order to minimize the # of holes in the roof. Use it to power a deep freeze and run a window unit during the summer. Cut my mid-summer power usage by 15% and keeps my main AC from running 24/7. This is in a 1500sf house.

I look at it like a backup generator that I use every day. That's about the only application that makes sense to me.

if you have the cash to pay for solar panels, do a net present valuation.
- what amount would that cash be earning if you safely invested it (5.0%) ?
Adjust annually for inflation for the life of the solar panel (20 years).
This lowers the amount to adjust future dollar value to current value.

Subtract that amount from the value the solar panels creates ( adjusted for inflation) for the life of the panel (20 years).
Recognize solar panel output decrease with age.

Subtract any expected maintenance cost.

Is your return still positive and enough to offset any other potential low probability high consequence risks such such as roof leaks?

Modern solar panels should last ~30 years if bought from a reputable brand.

But agree with your statement.

You can probably remove the insurance increase from your equations of ROI with panels.

If you're roof is totaled, the carrier is going to pay for removal and reinstall of panels. If you do everything yourself and make no claims, you're still getting an increase.

Your premium is going up regardless of whether you do you roof. I'm working through about 75 claims in Fredericksburg and I'm only one guy. There are thousands of claims. there are thousands in Dallas. Thousands in Katy and Houston, etc. We are all going to pay for that with an increase in our premium of both homeowners and auto.

What I am curious about is the credit, panels do not maintain 100% efficiency as time goes on so how much does that affect your credit as you pay them off?

Personally I love the idea of self sustaining power. I like wind power. I like solar. But for now, the cost of doing it is still really high and just doesn't make sense to me when cost and convenience is figured in. I'd also love an electric truck but until I can get one that will haul a gooseneck from Houston to Del Rio without 30 charges, I'm gonna stick to the Powerstroke.

At this point in tech, solar (without batteries) is pre purchasing 15 years of power, and that's if they work perfectly.

If you add In batteries, you are pre purchasing power and maybe keeping power on in a blackout

If the Biden admin continues to destroy the energy sector, the calculation may change. Look into what's going on in South Africa in their energy market.

Texas and Georgia have really cheap electric. Hard to get ROI. My buddy just installed solar but he's an orthopod with money to burn.

I looked into it, but my roof is not new or old, so it'd be dumb to do it.

My friends and I were talking about this, sorta. What makes the most sense is to start doing car ports/barns/sheds etc with a roof at the ideal angle and orientation for solar.

What about a small scrap-lumber powered steam generation plant? Maybe Harbor Freight can help?

I'm bumping this thread because the door to door salesmen have hit up my neighborhood again and I've talked to enough of them to get the gist of what they're selling this go round.

The phrases they're using:
You're currently renting power from the power company
Swap out your power bill for a lower, consistent solar panel bill
You save money as the price of power goes up since your solar bill stays the same.
30% tax credit
The 25 year warranty guarantees at least 80% capacity or they will come fix it.
Each panel has its own micro inverter so one panel going down won't take down the whole system
They will stress how American their company is and how they've been in business forever.
They will talk about how they have the best service network in the USA.

They are pushing the financing, one price that I was quoted:
$21,000 for a 8600kWh/year system, financed over 25 years at 3.99%

The other offers are pretty close to this. No battery backup.

Honestly asking, how are we getting screwed here?

It's the 25 years financing thing that comes up when you sell your home before the obligation is met.

You effectively can't take them with you and people typically aren't staying in homes for 25 years so it limits your buying pool as a lot of people walk away from your listing when they see they have to take on a contract they didn't sign up for.

And I wouldn't say the above is anybody getting screwed but they are major drawbacks that have to be factored in.

The strategy would be to advertise you would pay off the note at closing giving the buyer free electricity. Win-Win. But many more issues beside that as mentioned.

There's some good and not so good information in this thread. I'm an engineer and I consult on high performance buildings and provide design services. I also have a solar system and am working on some off grid concepts. Is solar a good idea? The only correct answer is "it depends".

I have seen some proposals from these solar companies and I will say they are borderline criminal. Absolutely lying to the customer on payback numbers. I reviewed one for an old friend that was tired of $400-500 electric bills so they were considering solar. The company that provided the quote was proposing the largest PV system I have ever seen on a home - literally covering every possible surface of the roof with panels regardless of orientation. The energy production projection, payback, etc was all BS. Absolute fraud. I would say stay far far away from most of these companies that are offering all the financing options that try to convince you that your savings on your electric bill will outweigh your monthly payment so you're basically getting a system for free.... Its BS

The biggest factor I have found in determining if solar is right for you is what your utility does with the excess production you send back to the grid. If they give you a one-for-one exchange, the payback scenario can be very attractive. Not many utilities do this. Some will offer you a rebate plus some amount (usually the wholesale value) per kWh that you send back to the grid. This can also be attractive but you just have to do the numbers. Some offer no rebate and very little $/kWh for excess production. This is really where you need to do your homework if you are considering solar.

Second, do it yourself and/or work with a local reputable company. There are plenty out there and they do good work. At a minimum you will most likely need an electrician to install the inverter and tie into your existing system. You might need a permit depending on location. I have a friend that has a system that was installed by Tesla and they are very happy with it. Do the financial calculation yourself and work with someone who can give you a real estimation on production, design and install the system.

If you're in an area served by an electric provider that does not give good incentives, you're going to need to look into battery storage to make the system have a reasonable payback. Tesla walls are expensive and don't have a lot of capacity. There's other manufacturers that have similar packaged backup/storage solutions. The idea here is you want to retain all of the excess power you produce and use it after the sun goes down instead of sending back to the grid. This also involves installing disconnects so you're not back-feeding the grid in a power outage situation. Regardless, you still spend quite a bit of money to get a reasonable amount of storage unless you're willing to do the research and DIY a storage system.

I've heard the hail objection since I got into this world over 20 years ago. Modern panels will withstand some pretty nasty storms and if you get one that does destroy your solar system, you have bigger problems. Sounds like insurance companies have caught up with the need to remove and replace your panels if you do need a new roof. Its really not that big of a deal.

You're almost always better off to spend money improving the performance of your home if your ultimate goal is to save money on your electric bill. On new builds we're doing R 60 in the roof, R 40 in the walls, extremely tight envelope, high performance windows, etc. - then we look at solar. Again, you just have to look at cost/benefit ratios to figure out what makes sense. If you're doing extensive renovations, it may make sense to rip out sheetrock and/or pull off exterior cladding to improve the insulation and tightness of your envelope. It makes absolutely no sense to spend money on solar panels if you have a 20 year old HVAC system, poor insulation and a house that leaks like a sieve.

Solar panels are not bad. Some of the companies that are selling them are bad. Do your research on the situation with your power provider. Make your home reasonably efficient. Do more research and then consider solar.