CWD wasn't an issue until we started treating wild animals like domestic stock in an effort to make as much money off of horns as possible.Corps_Ag12 said:
CWD wasn't an issue until they started looking for an issue IMO
schmellba99 said:CWD wasn't an issue until we started treating wild animals like domestic stock in an effort to make as much money off of horns as possible.Corps_Ag12 said:
CWD wasn't an issue until they started looking for an issue IMO
As I recall, the epicenter was a facility in Northern Medina County. It was bought off of the original Texas Mountain Ranch by some guys from Louisiana, who brought in deer. I used to hunt that place before it was cut up.schmellba99 said:CWD wasn't an issue until we started treating wild animals like domestic stock in an effort to make as much money off of horns as possible.Corps_Ag12 said:
CWD wasn't an issue until they started looking for an issue IMO
CS78 said:
If it's always been here, how do you explain the extensive testing they've done in recent years and the only positive results have come from the immediate proximity of deer breeding hot spots.
If it's always been there, then why are positive results continuing to spread out from the hot spots?
CWD did not exist in the Texas whitetail herd outside of the panhandle/far west Texas until we started treating them as livestock.Corps_Ag12 said:schmellba99 said:CWD wasn't an issue until we started treating wild animals like domestic stock in an effort to make as much money off of horns as possible.Corps_Ag12 said:
CWD wasn't an issue until they started looking for an issue IMO
Disagree. CWD has been linked to being caused by scrapies when deer where held at a research facility in Colorado in close proximity (same pen) as scrapie infected sheep in the 1960's.
But to your point, holding deer in a small, confined area is going to cause disease to spread much more quickly. Just like it does with humans, cows, sheep, etc., especially when there isn't an inoculation to deaden the side effects of the disease.
CWD wasn't any significant issue in Texas white tail until the breeding phenomenon started. It was present in a handful of cases in mule deer only. Out west it is present in elk and mule deer and has been for a while, but the overall spread has been extremely slow.Corps_Ag12 said:schmellba99 said:CWD wasn't an issue until we started treating wild animals like domestic stock in an effort to make as much money off of horns as possible.Corps_Ag12 said:
CWD wasn't an issue until they started looking for an issue IMO
Disagree. CWD has been linked to being caused by scrapies when deer where held at a research facility in Colorado in close proximity (same pen) as scrapie infected sheep in the 1960's.
But to your point, holding deer in a small, confined area is going to cause disease to spread much more quickly. Just like it does with humans, cows, sheep, etc., especially when there isn't an inoculation to deaden the side effects of the disease.
That seems to be placing the punishment upon the average hunter instead of the breeder where the CWD exists.fightingfarmer09 said:
I said this on a previous thread.
I think we should see changes to mimic other states.
In Tennessee for instance there is no baiting/feeding of any kind and if you are in a CWD zone you cannot transport an intact deer across the counties/zones. You have to debone in the field.
https://www.tn.gov/twra/hunting/cwd/regulations-and-hunting-with-cwd.html
F that nonsense - how about, and just bear with me here, the onus gets placed on the breeders that are doing 99% of the spread of the disease?fightingfarmer09 said:
I said this on a previous thread.
I think we should see changes to mimic other states.
In Tennessee for instance there is no baiting/feeding of any kind and if you are in a CWD zone you cannot transport an intact deer across the counties/zones. You have to debone in the field.
https://www.tn.gov/twra/hunting/cwd/regulations-and-hunting-with-cwd.html
oklaunion said:
A friend I have allowed to hunt on our place in SE Texas in the past turned an offer down earlier this year. His wife read about CWD and won't let him bring deer home anymore. Hence he didn't buy a hunting license this year.
Kind of points to the fact that folks are looking for punishment instead of prevention.country said:That seems to be placing the punishment upon the average hunter instead of the breeder where the CWD exists.fightingfarmer09 said:
I said this on a previous thread.
I think we should see changes to mimic other states.
In Tennessee for instance there is no baiting/feeding of any kind and if you are in a CWD zone you cannot transport an intact deer across the counties/zones. You have to debone in the field.
https://www.tn.gov/twra/hunting/cwd/regulations-and-hunting-with-cwd.html
Don't worry, TPWD is stilling letting breeders ship deer around the state like livestock using tests that have been proven to be insufficient to stop the spread of the disease. You will be in a CWD zone eventually. And TPWD will still keep letting the breeders ship deer after it happens.schmellba99 said:F that nonsense - how about, and just bear with me here, the onus gets placed on the breeders that are doing 99% of the spread of the disease?fightingfarmer09 said:
I said this on a previous thread.
I think we should see changes to mimic other states.
In Tennessee for instance there is no baiting/feeding of any kind and if you are in a CWD zone you cannot transport an intact deer across the counties/zones. You have to debone in the field.
https://www.tn.gov/twra/hunting/cwd/regulations-and-hunting-with-cwd.html
I'm not in a CWD zone, why should I have to be punished because of what somebody halfway across the state is doing?
txags92 said:Don't worry, TPWD is stilling letting breeders ship deer around the state like livestock using tests that have been proven to be insufficient to stop the spread of the disease. You will be in a CWD zone eventually. And TPWD will still keep letting the breeders ship deer after it happens.schmellba99 said:F that nonsense - how about, and just bear with me here, the onus gets placed on the breeders that are doing 99% of the spread of the disease?fightingfarmer09 said:
I said this on a previous thread.
I think we should see changes to mimic other states.
In Tennessee for instance there is no baiting/feeding of any kind and if you are in a CWD zone you cannot transport an intact deer across the counties/zones. You have to debone in the field.
https://www.tn.gov/twra/hunting/cwd/regulations-and-hunting-with-cwd.html
I'm not in a CWD zone, why should I have to be punished because of what somebody halfway across the state is doing?
No link between feeding deer and the spread of CWD in Texas. The spread is all from the breeders right now. I get that you are against feeding, and I understand the argument, but it has no relationship with the movement of CWD in Texas right now.fightingfarmer09 said:txags92 said:Don't worry, TPWD is stilling letting breeders ship deer around the state like livestock using tests that have been proven to be insufficient to stop the spread of the disease. You will be in a CWD zone eventually. And TPWD will still keep letting the breeders ship deer after it happens.schmellba99 said:F that nonsense - how about, and just bear with me here, the onus gets placed on the breeders that are doing 99% of the spread of the disease?fightingfarmer09 said:
I said this on a previous thread.
I think we should see changes to mimic other states.
In Tennessee for instance there is no baiting/feeding of any kind and if you are in a CWD zone you cannot transport an intact deer across the counties/zones. You have to debone in the field.
https://www.tn.gov/twra/hunting/cwd/regulations-and-hunting-with-cwd.html
I'm not in a CWD zone, why should I have to be punished because of what somebody halfway across the state is doing?
That state also lets you feed them like livestock, so there is that too.
There is more energy and debate into these feed schedules than most of the large scale cattle/dairy operations I work with.
txags92 said:No link between feeding deer and the spread of CWD in Texas. The spread is all from the breeders right now. I get that you are against feeding, and I understand the argument, but it has no relationship with the movement of CWD in Texas right now.fightingfarmer09 said:txags92 said:Don't worry, TPWD is stilling letting breeders ship deer around the state like livestock using tests that have been proven to be insufficient to stop the spread of the disease. You will be in a CWD zone eventually. And TPWD will still keep letting the breeders ship deer after it happens.schmellba99 said:F that nonsense - how about, and just bear with me here, the onus gets placed on the breeders that are doing 99% of the spread of the disease?fightingfarmer09 said:
I said this on a previous thread.
I think we should see changes to mimic other states.
In Tennessee for instance there is no baiting/feeding of any kind and if you are in a CWD zone you cannot transport an intact deer across the counties/zones. You have to debone in the field.
https://www.tn.gov/twra/hunting/cwd/regulations-and-hunting-with-cwd.html
I'm not in a CWD zone, why should I have to be punished because of what somebody halfway across the state is doing?
That state also lets you feed them like livestock, so there is that too.
There is more energy and debate into these feed schedules than most of the large scale cattle/dairy operations I work with.
Ok, show me where that link has been completed in Texas outside of a breeder facility or a breeder release site. The 3 or so detections in white tailed deer that were not in the pandhandle or west Texas (where they were exposed to infected elk or mule deer coming over from NM) have all been one off detections, mostly related to nearby breeder sites. The spread of CWD in Texas is happening because we are letting breeders move deer from county to county, not because we are allowing supplemental feeding.96ags said:txags92 said:No link between feeding deer and the spread of CWD in Texas. The spread is all from the breeders right now. I get that you are against feeding, and I understand the argument, but it has no relationship with the movement of CWD in Texas right now.fightingfarmer09 said:txags92 said:Don't worry, TPWD is stilling letting breeders ship deer around the state like livestock using tests that have been proven to be insufficient to stop the spread of the disease. You will be in a CWD zone eventually. And TPWD will still keep letting the breeders ship deer after it happens.schmellba99 said:F that nonsense - how about, and just bear with me here, the onus gets placed on the breeders that are doing 99% of the spread of the disease?fightingfarmer09 said:
I said this on a previous thread.
I think we should see changes to mimic other states.
In Tennessee for instance there is no baiting/feeding of any kind and if you are in a CWD zone you cannot transport an intact deer across the counties/zones. You have to debone in the field.
https://www.tn.gov/twra/hunting/cwd/regulations-and-hunting-with-cwd.html
I'm not in a CWD zone, why should I have to be punished because of what somebody halfway across the state is doing?
That state also lets you feed them like livestock, so there is that too.
There is more energy and debate into these feed schedules than most of the large scale cattle/dairy operations I work with.
"Scientists believe CWD proteins (prions) likely spread between animals through body fluids like feces, saliva, blood, or urine, either through direct contact or indirectly through environmental contamination of soil, food or water."
https://www.cdc.gov/prions/cwd/transmission.html
Bias cuts two ways.
The next time a free range (non breeder/breeder release site) deer tests positive on the same ranch for the 2nd time will be a first in Texas. Yes, all of these things are theoretically capable of enhancing exposure, but the way CWD is getting to new counties in Texas is in the back of a trailer, not through wide ranging deer visiting feeders.MouthBQ98 said:
I'd say anything that repeatedly and consistently draws deer from a large area to a single physical location increases the statistical odds of exposure if concentration and physical contact or contact with body excretions can spread the prions. The odds are probably highest with deer breeding as they are kept in close proximity to other deer from different sources for extended intervals, but anything that causes them to aggregate beyond a nautical low distribution will have some effect. It's a geometric probability distribution governed by close interactions.
If concentrations of individuals and interactions are kept sufficiently low, then the prion will fall to a very low background exposure level with only rare flare ups picked up from the environment at random. If deer populations keep being physically distributed, concentrated, and developed to higher total numbers, the disease will be consIderably more prevalent.
Only careful analysis will indicate what population and concentration levels will diminish the disease to a statistically insignificant level. That level might not sustain the "industry" built around the culture of deer hunting.
As I type this, I look across the street in the pasture to see a herd of probably 30 deer. Thing about deer - they tend to hang out in herds whether there is supplemental feed through deer feeders or not. About the only time they don't is during rut when bucks single up to chase poon.96ags said:txags92 said:No link between feeding deer and the spread of CWD in Texas. The spread is all from the breeders right now. I get that you are against feeding, and I understand the argument, but it has no relationship with the movement of CWD in Texas right now.fightingfarmer09 said:txags92 said:Don't worry, TPWD is stilling letting breeders ship deer around the state like livestock using tests that have been proven to be insufficient to stop the spread of the disease. You will be in a CWD zone eventually. And TPWD will still keep letting the breeders ship deer after it happens.schmellba99 said:F that nonsense - how about, and just bear with me here, the onus gets placed on the breeders that are doing 99% of the spread of the disease?fightingfarmer09 said:
I said this on a previous thread.
I think we should see changes to mimic other states.
In Tennessee for instance there is no baiting/feeding of any kind and if you are in a CWD zone you cannot transport an intact deer across the counties/zones. You have to debone in the field.
https://www.tn.gov/twra/hunting/cwd/regulations-and-hunting-with-cwd.html
I'm not in a CWD zone, why should I have to be punished because of what somebody halfway across the state is doing?
That state also lets you feed them like livestock, so there is that too.
There is more energy and debate into these feed schedules than most of the large scale cattle/dairy operations I work with.
"Scientists believe CWD proteins (prions) likely spread between animals through body fluids like feces, saliva, blood, or urine, either through direct contact or indirectly through environmental contamination of soil, food or water."
https://www.cdc.gov/prions/cwd/transmission.html
Bias cuts two ways.
If you watch a little longer, I'm sure you will see those same deer eating browse. The unnatural part of the way we feed deer in Texas is that they eat off of the ground (often clay soil) and or troughs.schmellba99 said:As I type this, I look across the street in the pasture to see a herd of probably 30 deer. Thing about deer - they tend to hang out in herds whether there is supplemental feed through deer feeders or not. About the only time they don't is during rut when bucks single up to chase poon.96ags said:txags92 said:No link between feeding deer and the spread of CWD in Texas. The spread is all from the breeders right now. I get that you are against feeding, and I understand the argument, but it has no relationship with the movement of CWD in Texas right now.fightingfarmer09 said:txags92 said:Don't worry, TPWD is stilling letting breeders ship deer around the state like livestock using tests that have been proven to be insufficient to stop the spread of the disease. You will be in a CWD zone eventually. And TPWD will still keep letting the breeders ship deer after it happens.schmellba99 said:F that nonsense - how about, and just bear with me here, the onus gets placed on the breeders that are doing 99% of the spread of the disease?fightingfarmer09 said:
I said this on a previous thread.
I think we should see changes to mimic other states.
In Tennessee for instance there is no baiting/feeding of any kind and if you are in a CWD zone you cannot transport an intact deer across the counties/zones. You have to debone in the field.
https://www.tn.gov/twra/hunting/cwd/regulations-and-hunting-with-cwd.html
I'm not in a CWD zone, why should I have to be punished because of what somebody halfway across the state is doing?
That state also lets you feed them like livestock, so there is that too.
There is more energy and debate into these feed schedules than most of the large scale cattle/dairy operations I work with.
"Scientists believe CWD proteins (prions) likely spread between animals through body fluids like feces, saliva, blood, or urine, either through direct contact or indirectly through environmental contamination of soil, food or water."
https://www.cdc.gov/prions/cwd/transmission.html
Bias cuts two ways.
Could an argument be made that deer feeders increase potential spread? Sure, I'm sure that argument could be made. But to what degree, since deer naturally operate in herds as it is.
I totally agree that supplemental feeding on the ground can be a threat where there is CWD in a wild population. But that isn't what is causing the spread from county to county in Texas. Maybe the deer on the breeder sites are spreading it to each other on the ground at feeders. But the way CWD is reaching new places in Texas right now is in trailers coming from deer breeders and there is really no excuse for TPWD not to have stopped that by now. They are derelict in their duty to protect the native wildlife of Texas by continuing to allow deer to be put in trailers and shipped to new properties based on testing that has been proven over and over to be insufficient to detect the disease in infected animals before they are moved.96ags said:If you watch a little longer, I'm sure you will see those same deer eating browse. The unnatural part of the way we feed deer in Texas is that they eat off of the ground (often clay soil) and or troughs.schmellba99 said:As I type this, I look across the street in the pasture to see a herd of probably 30 deer. Thing about deer - they tend to hang out in herds whether there is supplemental feed through deer feeders or not. About the only time they don't is during rut when bucks single up to chase poon.96ags said:txags92 said:No link between feeding deer and the spread of CWD in Texas. The spread is all from the breeders right now. I get that you are against feeding, and I understand the argument, but it has no relationship with the movement of CWD in Texas right now.fightingfarmer09 said:txags92 said:Don't worry, TPWD is stilling letting breeders ship deer around the state like livestock using tests that have been proven to be insufficient to stop the spread of the disease. You will be in a CWD zone eventually. And TPWD will still keep letting the breeders ship deer after it happens.schmellba99 said:F that nonsense - how about, and just bear with me here, the onus gets placed on the breeders that are doing 99% of the spread of the disease?fightingfarmer09 said:
I said this on a previous thread.
I think we should see changes to mimic other states.
In Tennessee for instance there is no baiting/feeding of any kind and if you are in a CWD zone you cannot transport an intact deer across the counties/zones. You have to debone in the field.
https://www.tn.gov/twra/hunting/cwd/regulations-and-hunting-with-cwd.html
I'm not in a CWD zone, why should I have to be punished because of what somebody halfway across the state is doing?
That state also lets you feed them like livestock, so there is that too.
There is more energy and debate into these feed schedules than most of the large scale cattle/dairy operations I work with.
"Scientists believe CWD proteins (prions) likely spread between animals through body fluids like feces, saliva, blood, or urine, either through direct contact or indirectly through environmental contamination of soil, food or water."
https://www.cdc.gov/prions/cwd/transmission.html
Bias cuts two ways.
Could an argument be made that deer feeders increase potential spread? Sure, I'm sure that argument could be made. But to what degree, since deer naturally operate in herds as it is.
Look, I am not a fan of deer breeders. I don't really like what has happened to the hunting industry in Texas. I just can't stand the disingenuous nature in which the argument about CWD always lays out.
I am of the opinion that we don't know enough about it at the moment and I distrust govt agencies and deer breeders equally. But if someone is going to yell from the rooftop that CWD is catastrophic, they have to at least be honest about all possible spread points.
Just because it's the 1st time there has been a positive test doesn't mean it is new to the area. You are making a ton of assumptions just to reach the conclusion that you want. Fortunately for all of us, it is still a very, very small number of deer.txags92 said:I totally agree that supplemental feeding on the ground can be a threat where there is CWD in a wild population. But that isn't what is causing the spread from county to county in Texas. Maybe the deer on the breeder sites are spreading it to each other on the ground at feeders. But the way CWD is reaching new places in Texas right now is in trailers coming from deer breeders and there is really no excuse for TPWD not to have stopped that by now. They are derelict in their duty to protect the native wildlife of Texas by continuing to allow deer to be put in trailers and shipped to new properties based on testing that has been proven over and over to be insufficient to detect the disease in infected animals before they are moved.96ags said:If you watch a little longer, I'm sure you will see those same deer eating browse. The unnatural part of the way we feed deer in Texas is that they eat off of the ground (often clay soil) and or troughs.schmellba99 said:As I type this, I look across the street in the pasture to see a herd of probably 30 deer. Thing about deer - they tend to hang out in herds whether there is supplemental feed through deer feeders or not. About the only time they don't is during rut when bucks single up to chase poon.96ags said:txags92 said:No link between feeding deer and the spread of CWD in Texas. The spread is all from the breeders right now. I get that you are against feeding, and I understand the argument, but it has no relationship with the movement of CWD in Texas right now.fightingfarmer09 said:txags92 said:Don't worry, TPWD is stilling letting breeders ship deer around the state like livestock using tests that have been proven to be insufficient to stop the spread of the disease. You will be in a CWD zone eventually. And TPWD will still keep letting the breeders ship deer after it happens.schmellba99 said:F that nonsense - how about, and just bear with me here, the onus gets placed on the breeders that are doing 99% of the spread of the disease?fightingfarmer09 said:
I said this on a previous thread.
I think we should see changes to mimic other states.
In Tennessee for instance there is no baiting/feeding of any kind and if you are in a CWD zone you cannot transport an intact deer across the counties/zones. You have to debone in the field.
https://www.tn.gov/twra/hunting/cwd/regulations-and-hunting-with-cwd.html
I'm not in a CWD zone, why should I have to be punished because of what somebody halfway across the state is doing?
That state also lets you feed them like livestock, so there is that too.
There is more energy and debate into these feed schedules than most of the large scale cattle/dairy operations I work with.
"Scientists believe CWD proteins (prions) likely spread between animals through body fluids like feces, saliva, blood, or urine, either through direct contact or indirectly through environmental contamination of soil, food or water."
https://www.cdc.gov/prions/cwd/transmission.html
Bias cuts two ways.
Could an argument be made that deer feeders increase potential spread? Sure, I'm sure that argument could be made. But to what degree, since deer naturally operate in herds as it is.
Look, I am not a fan of deer breeders. I don't really like what has happened to the hunting industry in Texas. I just can't stand the disingenuous nature in which the argument about CWD always lays out.
I am of the opinion that we don't know enough about it at the moment and I distrust govt agencies and deer breeders equally. But if someone is going to yell from the rooftop that CWD is catastrophic, they have to at least be honest about all possible spread points.
No assumptions necessary. Outside of the Trans Pecos and Western Panhandle areas, each time TPWD has announced a new surveillance zone due to positive test results in an area, it is because it has been detected in a deer at a breeder site or breeder release site. There is a very easy vector to see for that spread that is common to every case. Since they have started encouraging wider testing beyond the breeder/release sites, they have found a few positive deer in free range locations, and last I checked, all but one or two of those were adjacent to breeder sites. It isn't an assumption, it is a fact. The disease is spreading because of breeders carting deer around in trailers. That is not to say that it might now have eventually gotten there over a few decades of natural spread, but we have accelerated the spread dramatically by continuing to pretend that the existing live tests being used are accurate enough to stop infected deer from being moved. Spoiler alert: They aren't.96ags said:Just because it's the 1st time there has been a positive test doesn't mean it is new to the area. You are making a ton of assumptions just to reach the conclusion that you want. Fortunately for all of us, it is still a very, very small number of deer.txags92 said:I totally agree that supplemental feeding on the ground can be a threat where there is CWD in a wild population. But that isn't what is causing the spread from county to county in Texas. Maybe the deer on the breeder sites are spreading it to each other on the ground at feeders. But the way CWD is reaching new places in Texas right now is in trailers coming from deer breeders and there is really no excuse for TPWD not to have stopped that by now. They are derelict in their duty to protect the native wildlife of Texas by continuing to allow deer to be put in trailers and shipped to new properties based on testing that has been proven over and over to be insufficient to detect the disease in infected animals before they are moved.96ags said:If you watch a little longer, I'm sure you will see those same deer eating browse. The unnatural part of the way we feed deer in Texas is that they eat off of the ground (often clay soil) and or troughs.schmellba99 said:As I type this, I look across the street in the pasture to see a herd of probably 30 deer. Thing about deer - they tend to hang out in herds whether there is supplemental feed through deer feeders or not. About the only time they don't is during rut when bucks single up to chase poon.96ags said:txags92 said:No link between feeding deer and the spread of CWD in Texas. The spread is all from the breeders right now. I get that you are against feeding, and I understand the argument, but it has no relationship with the movement of CWD in Texas right now.fightingfarmer09 said:txags92 said:Don't worry, TPWD is stilling letting breeders ship deer around the state like livestock using tests that have been proven to be insufficient to stop the spread of the disease. You will be in a CWD zone eventually. And TPWD will still keep letting the breeders ship deer after it happens.schmellba99 said:F that nonsense - how about, and just bear with me here, the onus gets placed on the breeders that are doing 99% of the spread of the disease?fightingfarmer09 said:
I said this on a previous thread.
I think we should see changes to mimic other states.
In Tennessee for instance there is no baiting/feeding of any kind and if you are in a CWD zone you cannot transport an intact deer across the counties/zones. You have to debone in the field.
https://www.tn.gov/twra/hunting/cwd/regulations-and-hunting-with-cwd.html
I'm not in a CWD zone, why should I have to be punished because of what somebody halfway across the state is doing?
That state also lets you feed them like livestock, so there is that too.
There is more energy and debate into these feed schedules than most of the large scale cattle/dairy operations I work with.
"Scientists believe CWD proteins (prions) likely spread between animals through body fluids like feces, saliva, blood, or urine, either through direct contact or indirectly through environmental contamination of soil, food or water."
https://www.cdc.gov/prions/cwd/transmission.html
Bias cuts two ways.
Could an argument be made that deer feeders increase potential spread? Sure, I'm sure that argument could be made. But to what degree, since deer naturally operate in herds as it is.
Look, I am not a fan of deer breeders. I don't really like what has happened to the hunting industry in Texas. I just can't stand the disingenuous nature in which the argument about CWD always lays out.
I am of the opinion that we don't know enough about it at the moment and I distrust govt agencies and deer breeders equally. But if someone is going to yell from the rooftop that CWD is catastrophic, they have to at least be honest about all possible spread points.
